Why didn't they just slap the guy and ask for their $$$
back? You'd be surprised how much women grit their teeth
and put up with on a daily basis, when survival or just
something they want badly is at stake.
I find absurd that a woman will grit her teeth, continue taking lessons from
somebody
Yes, Azucena Maizani is known for her dressing like that. I feel that
it is a very long stretch to go from a _singer_ stage clothes to
concluding that it must have been an exclusively men's _dance_.
Hi Konstantin, yes I agree with you, it is a very long stretch to draw such
a conclusion.
I
the facts
by them explained; also in readings and in the knowledge of Argentine
Culture and history in general.
I wrote under the names; Sergio Suppa, Cachafaz and Sergio Vandekier).
All along these years I run into foreigners (never one Argentine) that
disputed historical facts as generally
Konstantin now says:
It is fairly well known that some tango women dressed in manly
clothes. Not just Azucena Maizani, but also Mercedes Simone (at least
on occasion). But this interesting trivia isn't the totality of what
you shared - you brought this up in the context of it being evidence
that
Meaning of life says (among other things): i have been dancing tango about 5
years, 3 or 4 times a week, my wife is a dance instructor (not tango), so she
has been dancing forever. so, still figuring it out, but beyond beginners.
Does not like classical tango music.
In my opinion you
This is about Jake's comments with whom I agree in great part.
I said Unless you spend time with somebody that knows the music and is able
to teach you tango musicality it is obvious that you, by yourself will never
discover the pleasure of listening and dancing to real tango music.
Jake
Igor says: I was told that many men trying tango drop it because they think
tango istoo feminine.
Dear Igor not too long ago I was surprised to read in one of your notes that
you believed that there are no gender roles in tango.
I do not wish to re-start a hot discussion of tango gender
Finally we arrived to equating masculinity with confidence. One of the male
characteristics that in some way I initially described as the man being
poised :
a state of balance or equilibrium, as from equality or equal distribution of
weight; equipoise.
2.
a dignified, self-confident
Most tango historians give as roots of our tango : Milonga, Habanera, Canyengue
and the ''Tanguillo Español''.
The milonga originated in Argentine rural areas and is known as Milonga Campera
(rural milonga) to differentiate it from the moder milonga or (City Milonga) .
See Sebastian Piana.
Ballroom dances have a particular choreography that fits a particular music.
Sometimes it is possible to use the choreography of a dance for something else.
For instance one can dance back and forth, cha-cha, rumba or swing to the
same music. Some times the feeling is the proper one but
Doug says Defining the dance strictly by the music creates a very slippery
slope.
Tell me - what is tango? Is it only OT Victor and the Old Guard? ... he
continues to give as examples different tango orchestras with very different
style.
IMO the answer is very simple. The human brain has
Mario goes to the milonga tonight and has some program in mind:my comments
are intended to be helpful and are given with humility, knowing that there may
be several answers to the same question.
1. I will not drink any tequilla tonight.
Great idea, if you drink alcohol you will have
Differences between Ballroom Tango and Argentine Tango. I will mention just a
few of them:
1- Ballroom Tango was derived from Argentine Tango. A.T. is different from all
the ballroom dances in many aspects.
A.T. was modified so that it would comply with the general rules of
Ballroom
There was a time, very early in tango history (1880 - 1920) when tango was
danced in pirigundines also called academias. These places were situated
in the periphery of the city and required special permits from the City hall to
function. Pirigundines continued to function till not too long
I would like to know what is the benefit of leading vs. not leading the cross.
My impression is that most people (both in Argentina and abroad) do not lead
the cross.
The woman automatically locks her left leg in front of her right one,
(and puts her weight on that left foot), two steps
Hi Keith,The object of your last note is to assert that the cross should
always be led . You provided the following elements:
Dani El flaco - You say: The first figure clearly shows Dani 'El Flaco'
Garcia leading Maria Plazaola to the position where I say she should cross by
default. But
Last night I went to dance to L'Alliance Francaise, here in Mar del Plata.
Most of the dancers there were trained by Nicolas and Anastasia, social and
stage dancers.
(they have a web page, if you wish to read about them).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVWnioLGUpU
They had a tango show at
Hi Mario,
The thing about learning tango is that it offers an infinite
number of possibilities with respect to steps, creativity,
styles, and type of music you dance to .
The limit as to what you wish to learn is set by you.
At this point in your learning process the main
But of course if the follower understands Tango, she would not takethe leaders
weight changes as a lead for her to do so too.. Andthat's what I said of
course. Tango on... Floyd
I understand that there are many ways to dance tango, many ways to lead as well.
What Floyd describes seems to
Jake asks: Not the so-called urban milonga Canaro introduced in 1932 with
Milonga sentimental. That's the milonga we dance to. Can anyone on this list
/who has danced to the earlier kind/ (there must be a few people who have) say
the two have much in common?
What follows is my opinion on
Evolution of the Milonga Campera (Rural Milonga):
1 - Two gauchos compite singing with guitar accompaniment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2w-SxQ5bYc
Payadores Raperos Rurales
Ricardo Pino y Wilson Saliwonczyk Payada Viajar.
2 - Competition or execution of music by two guitar
The author of the web page in question asserts that the following are tango
fallacies:
The eyes-closed Tango trance is a good thing.
The cross in the basic step is not lead.
The leader has the most difficult part.
The follower should apply pressure to the leader with their right hand
The name of the song is: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=PhfI-wM8q2Y
Y todavia te quiero(And I still love you)
Lyrics: Abel aznar
Music: Luciano Leocata
Sergio
PS. The way I hear it is recoded twice one on top of the other.
Changes of direction are not easy to understand.
Change of direction from a back cross:
A woman starts a back ocho, (let's say that she crosses her left leg back),
when the left leg of the woman is the one crossing this is part of a left turn.
So at the beginning of a back ocho the woman
Clarin, the major Buenos Aires daily paper, called her one of the four most
important influences on contemporary tango... I've heard this is a
fabrication. Does anyone actually have a copy of any Clarin article that said
this? --Chris
I searched the archives of Clarin Newspaper from the
Now I searched the Clarin Newspaper archives from year 1997 till today. All
magazines and supplements, text and headlines:
There are only two mentions of Susana Miller one already reported in reference
to Hurricane Katrina and another one, a brief reference to a
congresman who takes tango
Thank you Paul for the correct date of the Clarin article : La guerra de los
roces (The war of the roces). Roces means rubbing, friction.
A reference to the War of the roses (a dynastic English war 1455- 1487),
playing with the words Roses and Roces.
The article in Spanish appears if you
What is Villa Urquiza? See
http://nastynest.blogspot.com/2007/11/villa-urquiza-tango-style.html
The Villa urquiza Style, uses an elastic embrace. Usually close, but it may
have variable light if required to do certain figures. It is danced in an
elegant way,
with long steps, most dancers
Does it mean that traspie is just what we would call change of a foot?
Hi Igor,
It is possible that what you call change of foot and traspie are
the same.
In tango we call change of foot Cambios, when for instance, you are in a
position with (let us say) the right foot
Dear friends La valse chaloupée seems to be a tango as described by Mel (NZ),
but in actuality it is not a tango, it is an Apache Dance and in this particular
case a Vals.
In any case we will start to immitate this style in our tango group, the girls
are very excited with this idea.
Mario,
Somebody sent a private E-mail with the following message: (re. to my prior
note) How do you know they are dancing tango.
I wonder how good any of them can lead in a social setting anyone
else. I don't find their dancing that elegant anyway... it's not that
tango actually. :)
My answer:
Deby says:
Macana is lunfardo for those of you who do not speak it means: lie,
mistake, error. So for those of you trying to bolster your argument
of gender bender dancing using the Brothers Macana, now you know where
the name Macana comes from. Un nombre re-creativo as we would say here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9BfuNT7mX4NR=1
You will recognize that some of the steps and figures used by these competitors
are used by other stage tango dancers we have been looking at .
Enjoy, Sergio
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Jack says: Don't we talk a lot about the feeling of tango. I know it's very
important to me [understatement!] and the feeling I have when I watch a man and
a woman is completely different to when I watch a man and a man. They can both
be fabulous and very enjoyable, but different.
Hi Jack,
Brick says These couples are obviously dancing for the audience, and not for
each other. If only they knew what the audience really thought of them.
It could be the wrong audience? Nobody wants to dance for an audience that
cannot appreciate his performance. Showing off is not well liked .
I always wondered what is wrong with a well executed lead done utilizing or
invoving as a complement other body parts than the torso.
Do you have an opinion in this respect?
Notice that I said well executed lead. So please do not include 'bad habits'
of people that do not know how to lead.
Thank you for the many answers to the list and by private mail. Mostly to the
ladies for giving their valuable opinion as being recipient of those leads.
Most good dancers and tango teachers that I have known ( Traditional tango,
Stage tango, Canyengue) use their torso, arms, hands, thighs,
Lois asks:
So, if that is true that only Close Embrace people criticize, why is it that
Traditional tango, Nuevo, canyengue people don't criticize people who dance in
close? Are they just so much more tolerant? Is there nothing to complain about?
(BTW, I've heard some of my favorite dancers
Joe says: I want to say Stop talking about styles and just dance with me. I
don't care what it's called, I'm going to find a way to dance with you, and
it's going to be good if you don't poison it preconceived ideas.
I agree, it does not matter if you wish to use a name for the style you
Mario says There is a 'hinge' embrace ...so, this must go way back..this guy's
been dancingfrom before they dropped the atomic bomb.
Mario this is the embrace used today by most of us, it is the embrace of
Traditional Tango . It has a closed side: The right arm of the man on the
back of
There is a short video in Clarin newspaper today (clarin.com), in reference to
the competition Mundial Porteño de tango.
Graciela Gonzalez explains that the Style Villa Urquiza is the craze of this
years competition. She further explains that in the old times every
neighborhood in Buenos
Cadence and rhythm in Spanish is a reference to the harmony between the sounds
and the movements of the dancer.
Cadencia : En danza, armonización de los sonidos y los movimientos del
bailarín: la brusca cadencia del baile moderno.
Ritmo : MÚS. Orden al que se sujeta la sucesión de los
It was said:
What I've read about the chit chat in BsAs and it's origins, was that was the
only chance for a young suitor to talk to the girl with whom he was dancing
with, because it would not have been proper to sit next to her after the
dancing; she was there with a chaperone. Remember
Most people go to the milonga to dance, to immerse themselves in the world of
the milonga. Every code has a reason to exist.
The 30 seconds between tangos are used as described by Ilene and Nancy to get
the feeling of the music.Most people arrive to the milonga, greet their
friends,
MHO in this discussion is that one should not criticize in a negative form
other people's dancing. At the most one could say I do not like the way he
dances, or I like his dancing style ... If absolutely necessary one can have a
general discussion of movements of the arms in milonga
Sean says:
1- Often, videos are presented as educational tools. In that case, they
certainly should be critiqued in the same way we all judge any other
pedagogical discourse.
2 - In my opinion, Huck made a fair criticism of the video which in fact
resulted in an interesting and informative
Of course, the indication is just that. Like every other lead in Tango, it is
an invitation, not a command. The lady may ignore it if she wishes, or even
fight it. One hopes that the latter will be rare.
This has to be a joke.
Sergio
Of course, the indication is just that. Like every other lead in Tango, it is
an invitation, not a command. The lady may ignore it if she wishes, or even
fight it. One hopes that the latter will be rare.
I do not wish to brake the one liner rule so...
This would be the same as saying that
Dear Mario,
I want to congratulate you on your accomplishments, it was only
yesterday that you were asking guidance on how to lead and now, look at you !,
you can predict the future of tango lead and follow in North America.
I guess we can agree about certain elements:
1-
And I'd love to here some comments from the ladies - especially those who live
in Buenos Aires, or at least visit a lot. Does this happen there?
When you dance Argentine Tango in Buenos Aires, you go a milonga, you choose a
particular lady you feel a desire to dance with, and stare in the
I lead every thing. Everything! I lead her foot during the boleo...if she
blinks, I lead that, too! Carlos Gavito
Maybe what we are really debating is how much can Argentine Tango change,
before it is no longer Argentine Tango. Unfortunately, I don't have the answer
to that question.
The point is: if the woman decides not to blink despite Gavito's lead, what
doeshe *then* do? Run away screaming? And is she ever wrong if she decides not
toblink, even if she's *not* dancing with Gavito?
What do you do with a woman that does not follow the lead?
It is a personal matter:
As we say: There is no worse blind that the one that refuses to see, or worse
deaf than the one that refuses to hear.
I have been very clear in my opinion with respect to leading and following, I
do no see any point in re-iterating concepts or in getting personal with only
one person that
,,,But counting can be a useful tool while learning, and I'm
sure, long ago, most of the old milongueros spent at least some time
counting beats and counting steps.
IMO counting steps or beats is totally useless when learning tango musicality.
I grew up in Buenos Aires, I have known many
I agree with David, as I said before if you have a teaching/learning method
that is useful for you, by all means continue to use it.
I also agree with Trina, I have seen Argentine instructors counting, this
happens mostly outside of Argentina or in B.A. where tango is taught to
foreigners,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNWC76wPGOo
IMO this is a nice small group of tango dancers, moving to the beat of
alternative music.
It is a rather monotonous music that renders the dance itself monotonous.
The main problem is that when you use alternative music the feeling changes,
the
I find ridiculous that a woman has to use excuses of any kind to refuse to
dance with a particular man at a particular moment.
Let me see if you can understand it once and for ever: For a tango to be a
tango at a milonga it has to be wished by both partners.
The woman has to desire to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
Mario sent this example of tango dancing, some people think that what is shown
has something of NUevo Tango.
This is the most traditional tango salon that you can see. The tango as danced
and taught in the 40s. and today by the most famous tango
How Villa Urquiza style (Traditional Tango) differentiates itself from the
other styles: (in this video).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNnIkrkfAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo
Long Steps, Embrace in V, use of a varying embrace (elastic embrace) close,
with little light to
I will give my opinion on this subject with the knowledge that other may have a
different one. I have been trying to explain the differences and evolution of
the tango styles since the mid nineties. It has been a very difficult task. The
advent of You tube has greatly facilitated this
There has been a revival of the Canyengue style.
This is a form as danced by my grandparents.
The embrace is a very open V, with marked plié, (arrugue or bending of the
knees), cheek to cheek, both partners looking to the front but also to the
floor (about two yards in front), the left
Jack says : Ramiro Gigliotti do a 'change of direction' at 0.23 of the
original video and they also do one at 1.07 of the second video you posted. I
wasn't really sure if this is part of traditional Salon Tango or not.
Hi Jack, I reviewed the two videos and what happens around those times
New Styles of dance generate confrontations and polemics between milongueros
(Article from Clarin, Sunday, August 8, 1999)
I will divide this article in two sections, this is the first one.
For ten years, the proliferation of teachers and schools have been modifying
the way to dance tango.
_ Note from the translator _ to clarify: _ In reference to the three or four
most popular tango styles _
Villa Urquiza (Traditional) - Almagro (milonguero) - Naveira (Nuevo) - Todaro
(traditional - Fantasia) -
They are not difficult to distinguish. Make yourself comfortable on a stool
Yes as Barbara says and I mentioned at the beginning of the note, this is an
article that appeared in the Clarin Newspaper
on Sunday, August 8, 1999.
It is an article that I kept in my files ever since and I thought that it could
be interesting for the group with respect to the subject of
We should not give Lunfardo more importance than that it actually has.
Most people here in Argentina never use Lunfardo, further more its use is
considered to be a vulgarity.
Most of us were first exposed to it through Tango Lyrics.
Unless you are interested in certain tango lyrics you can
Damian,
Tank you very much for your gracious note.
My intention was not to criticize your dancing at all. I thought that the use
of those videos, already presented and discussed by other members of the list,
was a good oportunity to show what 'feeling in Argentine Tango is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2bEPOvOp9cfeature=PlayListp=642FCECA51E2D428playnext=1index=6
Chicho - Nuevo Tango - Open embrace
Sergio
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Practica X is the name of a tango activity that normally starts with a lesson
of the Nuevo Tango Style. This is followed by a practica.
People dance and practice freely as the floor is very big and there is plenty
of room to practice any type of steps or figures without disturbing anyone.
To exchange money you may use banks, Casas de cambio (Cambio, or ATM machines.
The ATM machine may charge a fee if you use cards from a different banck, it
will not charge a fee if you use a branch of the bank that isued the card.
(This is the same as at home).
The fee charged sometimes is
It is interesting that I spent several months dancing in Buenos Aires, many
times at Gricel on Fridays and never noticed the navigation problems that
michael describes. We have been dancing at Gricel for years without any
problems, further more I do not think that people at Gricel dance
Deby says : There were no fights at Gricel. I have no idea what he was
talking about. In my 9 years in the milongas here I have only seen 1 actual
fight and that was in Niño Bien when a tourist got really drunk and started
throwing chairs. Sometimes men purposely bump into each other and fake
Pat reports a fight she observed at Gricel and adds I feel this unusual
incident didn't reflect so much on Gricel, because it was such an exception to
the rule, but simply illustrated the fact that Porteños are fallible human
beings, too.
1- This unusual incident,...It should be very
I have asked Argentine ladies that I consider to be excellent tango dancers
their opinion on this matter.
-Who dance better Argentine men or foreign men?-
They replied that foreign men seem to have a lot of technique but that
Argentine men have better musicality and feeling for the music.
Burak says For me, Social Tango is very personal, it's neither genetically
inherited nor studied in academic institutions,and it's immigrant culture, so
it can infiltrate into different cultures.
I entirely agree with Burak, social tango is personal, every dancer develops
his own style
Connection in Argentine Tango (IMO) is dual, physical and spiritual.
The physical connection develops and improves as you learn the rich and
intricate technique of the dance.
The better your technique, the better your posture, the more precise your
movements and placement of your feet, as
I will tell you another secret, that
proves my above statement - every single step in tango is part of a
giro, either clockwise or counterclockwise.
But, suppose we're walking directly in-line in parallel feet - are the lady's
backward steps back crosses or open steps - and which is which
The malambo was born in the loneliness of the plain around 1600. Among our
dances, it is an exception because it does not have lyrics, the music of the
guitars accompany this dance that only men perform. The dancer shows off with
the tap dancing, the cepillada (brushing) (to graze the floor
Those that would like more information about malambo, and read about the
difference between the northern and southern forms of the dance can see a web
page sent to me by a friend. (Susan).
http://www.travelsur.net/argentinamusic/malambo.html
Sergei says Funny how an Argentinian gaucho dance resembles the Caucasian
lezginka (for example, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL5LuAZ6ebw ) so
much.
I personally think that the music and the dance in Lezginka and Malambo are
obviously different although I have to agree that there
The word mulonga (like its plural, milonga ) is a term of quimbunda origin, of
the language spoken by the Angolan slaves, that means word. So Mulonga means
word and Milonga means words or palabrerio many words.
Gauchos used to gather and organize Payadas, a contrapunto in which two
singers
The Urban Milonga (Milonga Porteña) was created by Sebastian Piana and his
brother in law, Pedro Maffia.
Sebastian Piana was asked to compose a milonga by the famous singer Rosita
Quiroga. He thought that the Milonga Campera music was rather monotonous in
order to allow the singers to
Around 1880, Gauchos (cowboys) that normally brought cattle to Buenos aires
started to settle around the city.
They brought with them, their payadas and Milongas Camperas to the suburbs of
the city.
Here they interacted with African slaves that had their own dances called
Candombes.
Bettina says:
Finally - as food for thought - I personally do ask why everyonethinks it is
Argentine : much of the music
originates of the Black culture that was imported slave labor there at the
time (rhythm),the bandoneon came from Germany (that much for the soul of a
germanthat
I searched in Clarin newspaper news from 8/2008 to 8/12/2009.
I did not find any news about roberto Herrera.
Sergio
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFZeQ7Us88s
Here Gustavo Naveira, adjusts to the music and mostly dances Traditional Tango
Style. Indio Manso - Carlos di Sarli.
When you are a good dancer and know several tango styles you adjust your
dancing to the available space, the music, your partner,
Bettina says:
1 - I wholeheartedly agree - first of all - there is noone here in BsASthat
ratifies, second, Tango is - like all in Life - subject toconstant evoluton,
third, Tango IS not just Argentine, but danced allover the world - like it or
not - agree or not -it is reality -
***Should
Example of Fado, it impresses me for its beauty, its expressivity and mostly
because of its sadness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yejaUUBqtr0
Fado by Amalia Rodrigues
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSeiivkzATsfeature=related
Rembetika
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPUSMgY10ws
Bettina not long ago you started a discussion by saying among other things:
We may be afraid tango loses its essence ifwe don't think of it so much as
Argentine (like the Nuevo talk) butrather a universal quality, who knows what
comes of it, in terms ofart, expansion, evolution . . . yes
Dear friends,
You may download the Amazon MP3 Cd 50 essential tangos for $1,99.
See Milan Records note at http://www.pr.com/press-release/170684
Sergio
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Ron asks to Bettina : OK, be specific. In what milongas is Piazzolla played
for dancing tango and who are the DJs playing it? I have NEVER heard Piazzolla
played at a milonga in Buenos Aires. Maybe I'm going to the wrong milongas!!
Ron sit down to wait for the answer as it may take a
Dear friends,
The World Tango Competition in Buenos Aires finished last week.
The first place in Salon Style (social dancing) went to a Japanese couple,
Hiroshi and Kyoko Yamao.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRrBU0ErKDg
Notice that the tango style used in all the
Ecsedy you say Because the dance is, erroneously, called Tango Argentino
outside LatinAmerica,
1 - *** No error there (IMO) Tango Argentino is different from the other styles
that were created outside of Argentina (Uruguay) (Ballroom tango,
(A variation of International tango), International
Aron you say I believe that 'nuevo' became a term that doesn't describe a form
of dancing. It doesn't really mean any type or style of dancing that could be
identified without doubt just by looking.
*** Nuevo is a distinct tango style and easily identified by looking.
Style
a particular kind, sort, or type, as with reference to form, appearance, or
character: the baroque style; The style of the house was too austere for their
liking.
a particular, distinctive, or characteristic mode or form of construction or
execution in any art or work: Her painting is
Jack you say You can intellectualize it any way you want but there have been
thousands of posts on Tango-L covering the subject of these 3 'styles' of
dancing Tango. Is everybody wrong?
No, Jack everybody is not wrong, just few people are.
There are those that (in the mid 90s.) when I
Valentin says : The tango today (with some, fortunately not all, discussions
in Tango-L) follows the development of the chritian religion - from Jerusalem
to Rome (and all the heretics and also all the saints...) and than the Eastern
Orthodox..., and the protestants... and the churches un
Jack you ask what is this?, I am confused
I do not know what it is, but I know what it is not. It is not Argentine Tango
or any other form of tango known to me.
The music is not tango, the character of the dance is not tango, there are
moves of the upper body or the hips more related
Dear Jan you say It is a beautiful tango
I did not express an opinion in reference to the beauty of the dance, this is a
matter of personal taste. I did like it as well. I think that everybody should
dance any way they like to do it, I just tried to clarify to Jack that the
confusion comes
Aron you say: When we are debating about nuevo, I don't say you should not
dance the way you want. I say exactly the opposite: LET everyone decide how
s/he wants to dance (decision is not between styles you predefined, it is a
free choice of what and how to include).
Character is the
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