Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
I also dislike this 30 seconds of chit-chat on the dance floor. Just what is its purpose? Someone told me it was so that the dancers could hear the music before starting to dance but, IMO, that just doesn't ring true.. Firstly, they're chatting, not listening and, secondly, the 5 seconds to make the embrace is surely enough to 'hear' the music. Of course, I might be missing something and I'd appreciate any enlightenment on the reason for this tradition in Buenos Aires. I don't think it happens in other partner dances. Jack - Original Message From: Dubravko Kakarigi [EMAIL PROTECTED] For example, I very much dislike the 20-30 second standing around on the floor and talking as the music starts as it is common in many milongas in Buenos Aires. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
This same delay in the start of dancing occurs in the danzon. The introduction, or about the first 16 measures, are not danced. When the introduction is then repeated during the music, the dancers stop again. Danzon originated in Cuba from a French contradance by way of Haiti. If you believe that the danzon and tango have similar roots (both are based on the habanera), this delayed start would indicate some commonality. The danzon is still danced in Cuba and Mexico, particularly Veracruz and Mexico City. Original Message: - From: Jack Dylan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 22:43:13 -0700 (PDT) To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint I also dislike this 30 seconds of chit-chat on the dance floor. Just what is its purpose? Someone told me it was so that the dancers could hear the music before starting to dance but, IMO, that just doesn't ring true.. Firstly, they're chatting, not listening and, secondly, the 5 seconds to make the embrace is surely enough to 'hear' the music. Of course, I might be missing something and I'd appreciate any enlightenment on the reason for this tradition in Buenos Aires. I don't think it happens in other partner dances. Jack - Original Message From: Dubravko Kakarigi [EMAIL PROTECTED] For example, I very much dislike the 20-30 second standing around on the floor and talking as the music starts as it is common in many milongas in Buenos Aires. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
I'm not going to mince words here. There is something happening at festivals and maybe at milongas that is not pretty. Too many women are being way too aggressive in asking, no! in demanding dances from leaders. Even from leaders they do not know. The men are complaining. They are trying to hide. They have turned down these women who have the nerve to return with hostility and ask again. These women are grabbing men on the dance floor before they have even disengaged from their current partners. They are lying in wait at the entrance to the ballroom to snag guys before they even enter the venue. I understand. We have come a long way and spent a lot of money to attend these events. But..what happened to 'waiting your turn'? What entitles YOU to dance more than I? The guys are great. They try to dance with old friends they have danced with over the years. They try to get around to everyone they know and then also ask the women who might otherwise sit. But I had four different men tell me the women in Albuquerque were being 'mean' and demanding and pushy. One even described being hurt so badly by a woman who tried stuff he had not led and she was not capable of executing so that he was disabled for the rest of the event - much to the chagrin of his wife. And I was not the only one who heard these complaints. Soif you didn't hear the complaints, were you part of the problem? Maybe in your communities it is OK to ask the men to dance. Maybe some men like it. But I am old school. I like to know that a guy asks me to dance to a specific musician, for a specific type of dance. I do a lot of sitting. But on Sunday, I was asked to dance by five of the best dancers at the festival. Certainly worth waiting for. Maybe next time the men won't be so polite or maybe they will decide not to come to a place where they have little say in choosing their dance partners. I hope not. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play? The festival was fantastic. Tom, as usual, had everything well organized and the locals, led by Paul, provided us with a great hotel, excellent food, a good sound system and perfect weather. The semi-outdoor event was in an impressive space with some good Southwestern comida. And the country around Albuquerque and Santa Fe is some of the most beautiful you will ever see - especially Bandelier Nat'l Monument. Nancy A veteran of this festival and several others ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
I remember when I lived and danced in Los Angeles, one Argentine man there told me he used to hide out in the bathroom to get away from the aggressive women. And this was years and years ago. I can only imagine how much worse it is today. One woman friend from L.A. who I saw down here was being aggressive in the BsAs milongas, and I tried to suggest to her that the Argentine men don't like being pushed like that, and she told me that she was American and she was on vacation and she could do any damned thing she pleased! I can only say that when Ruben is accosted by a woman coming to his table to demand a dance, he might do it that one time because it's very difficult for a caballero to refuse a woman due to politeness, but then he will never dance with her again. So in the end, these women are only hurting themselves by doing whatever damned thing they like! Perhaps not too far in the future, these aggressive women will do all the leading as well. cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ ** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
Thanks, Nancy, I'm glad someone has the nerve to speak up. This has been going on for as many years as I have been dancing tango. It's worse in some places than others. I've even seen it happen in classes where women are asked to rotate. They don't seem to notice that some women have been standing and waiting for their turn to dance and when the time comes for a rotation, one sees the same women dancing and the same women standing. The men don't know who has been waiting because they're busy dancing, but the women know whether they just had a turn. We women need to have more respect and concern for each other. By the way, does anyone know why there weren't any shoe vendors in Albuquerque? I know that Diva Boutique wants to start attending Tom's festivals. She always brings hundreds of shoes and I think both the women AND the men would like to have such a big selection to choose from. She carries my stuff - Tara Shoes as well as Comme il Faut and some other brands, including men's shoes. Best, Robin Tara http://www.22tangoshoes.com On 9/2/08, NANCY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not going to mince words here. There is something happening at festivals and maybe at milongas that is not pretty. Too many women are being way too aggressive in asking, no! in demanding dances from leaders. Even from leaders they do not know. The men are complaining. They are trying to hide. They have turned down these women who have the nerve to return with hostility and ask again. These women are grabbing men on the dance floor before they have even disengaged from their current partners. They are lying in wait at the entrance to the ballroom to snag guys before they even enter the venue. I understand. We have come a long way and spent a lot of money to attend these events. But..what happened to 'waiting your turn'? What entitles YOU to dance more than I? The guys are great. They try to dance with old friends they have danced with over the years. They try to get around to everyone they know and then also ask the women who might otherwise sit. But I had four different men tell me the women in Albuquerque were being 'mean' and demanding and pushy. One even described being hurt so badly by a woman who tried stuff he had not led and she was not capable of executing so that he was disabled for the rest of the event - much to the chagrin of his wife. And I was not the only one who heard these complaints. Soif you didn't hear the complaints, were you part of the problem? Maybe in your communities it is OK to ask the men to dance. Maybe some men like it. But I am old school. I like to know that a guy asks me to dance to a specific musician, for a specific type of dance. I do a lot of sitting. But on Sunday, I was asked to dance by five of the best dancers at the festival. Certainly worth waiting for. Maybe next time the men won't be so polite or maybe they will decide not to come to a place where they have little say in choosing their dance partners. I hope not. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play? The festival was fantastic. Tom, as usual, had everything well organized and the locals, led by Paul, provided us with a great hotel, excellent food, a good sound system and perfect weather. The semi-outdoor event was in an impressive space with some good Southwestern comida. And the country around Albuquerque and Santa Fe is some of the most beautiful you will ever see - especially Bandelier Nat'l Monument. Nancy A veteran of this festival and several others ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
Hi Cherie, Here's another story, I was standing in the milonga at a festival and one of the top professional dancers was giving me a neck massage. I had just had a conversation with a woman about how aggressive the women dancers were. How they would interrupt a conversation to drag a man away to dance. Then, out of nowhere, the SAME woman came up to me and grabbed my masseur for a dance!!! This North American woman and her North American husband now teach tango in Buenos Aires! Can you believe it? Robin Tara On 9/2/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I remember when I lived and danced in Los Angeles, one Argentine man there told me he used to hide out in the bathroom to get away from the aggressive women. And this was years and years ago. I can only imagine how much worse it is today. One woman friend from L.A. who I saw down here was being aggressive in the BsAs milongas, and I tried to suggest to her that the Argentine men don't like being pushed like that, and she told me that she was American and she was on vacation and she could do any damned thing she pleased! I can only say that when Ruben is accosted by a woman coming to his table to demand a dance, he might do it that one time because it's very difficult for a caballero to refuse a woman due to politeness, but then he will never dance with her again. So in the end, these women are only hurting themselves by doing whatever damned thing they like! Perhaps not too far in the future, these aggressive women will do all the leading as well. cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ ** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv000547) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Cherie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I remember when I lived and danced in Los Angeles, one Argentine man there told me he used to hide out in the bathroom to get away from the aggressive women. And this was years and years ago. I can only imagine how much worse it is today. In fairness to women, I've seen men behave just as poorly here in Phoenix when the ratio is such that there are way more men than women (which happens from time to time here). The same nonsense, guys who are already dancing picking off women before they even leave the floor, instead of letting somebody else have a turn. You pretty much have to be a totally aggresive jerk to get a dance, hovering around the women like a seedy horndog waiting to pounce, something which I for one refuse to do. Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
Of course the unmentioned but related problem is gender balance. Obviously, the women don't like sitting, and the men don't like being on the spot. Even if they aren't being pursued, they feel guilty. Both are negative feelings. In general, women are more likely to take privates and spend money to travel for good tango. Guys face some performance anxiety issues when faced with the intensity of a crowded, energetic dance floor. It's just more daunting for the guys, and he has to deal with launching ideas and managing the crowded floors. If each tango city sends 4 men and 5 women to a festival, it doesn't sound like a problem, but when this gets applied to 300 dancers, you have 30 extra women. BALANCE LOCALLY If the overall problem seems overwhelming, let's divide it into smaller pieces where individuals can have an impact. I urge all festival attendees (women AND men) to talk around with your friends to see who may be coming from their own community, and to make efforts to balance locally. Recognize that the guys may need a little coaxing, especially if it is their first road-trip. Work out car sharing or roommates to help with costs. At the festival, take classes to meet and mix. It does help to show off your friends, and introduce them around; but you don't have to dance with them the whole time... trade them off to ladies from other communities. SECOND REASON TO BALANCE LOCALLY The purpose of a festival is to meet lots of new and old friends, create an intense dance experience and feel the excitement you get with a room full of good dancers. This can be a transformative experience. (I find that for the few days after a festival, the world is a pastel and dreary place, a sort of tango hangover). You don't want the festival to be just a pleasant memory. You want the transformative experience to continue when you return home, and that requires BOTH men and women to carry the festival energy. On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:14 AM, NANCY wrote: I'm not going to mince words here. There is something happening at festivals and maybe at milongas that is not pretty. Too many women are being way too aggressive in asking, no! in demanding dances from leaders. Even from leaders they do not know. The men are complaining. They are trying to hide. They have turned down these women who have the nerve to return with hostility and ask again. These women are grabbing men on the dance floor before they have even disengaged from their current partners. They are lying in wait at the entrance to the ballroom to snag guys before they even enter the venue. I understand. We have come a long way and spent a lot of money to attend these events. But..what happened to 'waiting your turn'? What entitles YOU to dance more than I? The guys are great. They try to dance with old friends they have danced with over the years. They try to get around to everyone they know and then also ask the women who might otherwise sit. But I had four different men tell me the women in Albuquerque were being 'mean' and demanding and pushy. One even described being hurt so badly by a woman who tried stuff he had not led and she was not capable of executing so that he was disabled for the rest of the event - much to the chagrin of his wife. And I was not the only one who heard these complaints. delier Nat'l Monument. Nancy A veteran of this festival and several others ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
As bad as it all is, the only way to prevent it from happening is to not accept such rude invitations. But then you are blacklisted. The One can argue that being blacklisted by these women/men would be a blessing ... I actually don't mind women asking, as long as they understand that asking carries the risk of being rejected. I do ask specific women based on the music, based on my mood, by my energy level, etc. If people would say No a lot more, I think things would improve a lot in the north american tango. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:57 AM, robin tara wrote: Thanks, Nancy, By the way, does anyone know why there weren't any shoe vendors in Albuquerque? Robin Tara http://www.22tangoshoes.com Robin, you know this isn't true. In fact there were shoes and clothes for sale. Not to mention, yoga in the morning and massage for your aching feet. You also know that I've been happy to welcome you to my festivals regularly. I know that you love to dance tango and get to participate with everyone else. However, I admit that I don't really emphasized vendors. With all due respect to your business, my purpose is to honor the dancing and the participants. Even the teachers at my festivals are not the big-name show dancers, rather people who can entertain a large class and who focus on social dancing. The only exhibition is a group social dance honoring and presenting the teachers. I do feel that the DJs deserve special recognition. They are the ones who manage the social energy and keep you dancing for hours, even to dawn. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
Hello, everyone, Gender imbalance and other explanations do not justify bad behavior. What Nancy had described *is* bad behavior. It shows poor boundaries, impulsivity and agression - all in service of getting what people want. This is the stuff that people carry with themselves in their lives. This is how they have learned to get what they want. To avoid having people's stuff spill out in the milongas, there are rules of conduct. Argentines, just like everyone else, have their stuff. However, when they show up at the milongas, the rules provide the boundaries and guidelines for those individuals for whom their own boundaries are lacking. The codes of the milongas protect everyone from some people's bad behavior. The traditional codes are beautiful because they help people behave better than they might on their own. Best, Nina http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
Tom, Sorry, but I heard there weren't any vendors. And later I heard that CarrieWhipple had a few shoes. Of course I knew that Anne Leva was there with her clothes, as always You may not emphasize vendors, and that's fine. Your festivals are wonderful experiences and people have a great time dancing and reconnecting with old friends. But there are a whole lot of people coming to festivals who want the opportunity to touch, feel and try some tango shoes for size. Back when there were a selection of companies selling at festivals people could compare and make informed decisions about what to buy. Many people don't have the opportunity to go to Buenos Aires for shoes and wait for festivals so they can know for sure what they're buying. I just think the organizers should recognize this and give their customers what they want. I think that if you polled your participants you would discover that they really want to have a good selection of clothes and shoes to choose from. Men as well as women. Robin On 9/2/08, Tom Stermitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:57 AM, robin tara wrote: Thanks, Nancy, By the way, does anyone know why there weren't any shoe vendors in Albuquerque? Robin Tara http://www.22tangoshoes.com Robin, you know this isn't true. In fact there were shoes and clothes for sale. Not to mention, yoga in the morning and massage for your aching feet. You also know that I've been happy to welcome you to my festivals regularly. I know that you love to dance tango and get to participate with everyone else. However, I admit that I don't really emphasized vendors. With all due respect to your business, my purpose is to honor the dancing and the participants. Even the teachers at my festivals are not the big-name show dancers, rather people who can entertain a large class and who focus on social dancing. The only exhibition is a group social dance honoring and presenting the teachers. I do feel that the DJs deserve special recognition. They are the ones who manage the social energy and keep you dancing for hours, even to dawn. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
Robin Tara wrote: By the way, does anyone know why there weren't any shoe vendors in Albuquerque? Wait - You mean the $150 shoes that my GF bought at the festival in Albuquerque were mythical?? Maybe the cash I gave her (glad they didn't take MC - the damage would certainly have been worse) ended up going for a massage or perhaps new dress from TangoLeva. The vendors were good! The classes were good! The milongas were good! The locals who provided transportation to the Sunday Milonga were wonderful. Thank you all. And especially, Tom - Thank you!! Paul (Albuquerque) - Thank you!! D. David Thorn _ See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts. http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
Hi Nancy, We have been in Buenos Aires (where it is not acceptable for women to request a dance) since late May, and we have just returned from spending 10 days in Uruguay, where we did a bit of dancing in Montevideo, The tango scene there is definitely more relaxed, with none of the pomp and ceremony of BsAs milongas. In Montevido, invitation to dance is effected by cabaceo or verbally, both from men and from women. The invitations (the verbal ones) were not pushy or demanding, and both acceptance or rejection was delivered in a friendly manner (think of a party where someone holding a tray of finger food comes over and offers some to you - either smile and say ´yes , thanks´ or smile and say ´no, thank you´ - neither person was left feeling pressured or regected, either way). My partner found it quite refreshing, actually. now we are back in Bs As for another 3 months of pomp and ceremony :) Back in our home city in Australia, where some women do ask for dances, my parnter does occasionally get frustrated with women either demanding dances, or making comments like ´you haven´t danced with me the past ... milongas´(like being given a friendly reminder from the phone company that you bill is overdue), or giving him the puppy dog eyes, begging look. He has a hard time rejecting these demands (he is simply a big pot of honey). Sometimes he would come home from a milonga feeling that he´d come back from a hard day´s work, rather than back from a pleasant night of dancing. I often tell him that he needs to toughen up, and If anyone should demand dances from him, it should be me, right? I do realise that, in a community where everyone knows everyone else, it is harder to avoid offending someone by saying ´no´. Maybe saying ´later´ might be a better option for him and other men faced with a similar situation. In Australia, there has been many a time when having caught each other´s eye, the man is about to get up from his seat, when, out of nowhere, another woman grabs him and pulls him onto the dance floor. Aaaarrrggghh! When in Australia what I occasionally do is , while chatting to a friend, just when I am about to move on (end the conversation) I´ll say something along the lines of ´I´d love to have a dance later on´, smile and then walk away/back to my seat/get myself a drink etc. This way, the man (regardless of friendship) doesn´t feel pressured to dance with me on the spot - or at all, for that matter. It´s not a demand. It´s not begging. What it does do, however, is to give him the opportunity to ask me if or when he is ready/the music is right etc. Moreover, it is a way of letting him know that i do like dancing with him (something we all like to be reminded of, every now and then, regardless of gender). -- Yours in dance dementia, Niki www.tangotrails.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
