I would be careful to get an all analog tcxo. The digi-trim ones while may
have a decent total error band over temperature can hop up and down in 100
ppb steps when the temperature straddles two points on its temp comp table.
On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 7:06 PM Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
Hi
Ok, I missed that.
Unless there is also a trimmer cap, the EFC will be >> 0.01Hz if it needs to be
on frequency for any rational amount of time. If the crystals are the typical
old fundamentals,
they may age 5 to 10 ppm / year when heated to OCXO temperatures. That’s +/- 25
to +/-
50 Hz
Bob
He stated 0.01Hz EFC tuning range was adequate.
Gave no spec as to how close to nominal frequency is required though.
Bruce
> On 16 March 2017 at 10:53 Bob Camp wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
> By most modern definitions, “high stability” starts around 1x10^-12 (1 ppt)
> at a tau of
Hi
> On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:55 PM, Dan Kemppainen wrote:
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> If one prototypes any crystal oscillator, and runs it on a bench. Then builds
> an 'oven' of sorts and runs it on the same bench. Would you expect to see any
> improvement?
Sure, the XO likely
Hi
By most modern definitions, “high stability” starts around 1x10^-12 (1 ppt) at
a tau of 1 second to
10 seconds. There are $20 eBay OCXO’s that run at that level. With a
fundamental crystal you
aren’t going to get to that point.
How much EFC range are you after?
How good a CNC setup
Most likely AT cut fundamental (although there are other possibilities.)
designed for operation around room temperature.
Do you have the manufacturer's specs for these?
What is the change in frequency between room temperature and oven temperature?
What is the operating temperature of the inner
Hi Bob,
If one prototypes any crystal oscillator, and runs it on a bench. Then
builds an 'oven' of sorts and runs it on the same bench. Would you
expect to see any improvement?
In other words for a given oscillator (crystal and electronics, etc),
will there be any improvements in an oven
Hi,
I have a bunch of 5.184Mhz crystals. Large metallic tanks: HC33U case
Maybe not OCXO grade, but I build a simple oscillator with a 4060 chip
placed in a double oven, and reached 10E-9 short term stability up to 10sec tau.
Not bad, so wondering if I can get better with a more advanced design.
On 03/15/2017 05:30 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
On 3/15/2017 4:45 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency
like
that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing
a proper
design on one is a lot of work. You
On 3/15/2017 4:45 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency like
that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a proper
design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design for
5.00
MHz would
> Le 15 mars 2017 à 08:11, Gilles Clement a écrit :
>
> Hi,
> So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ?
> I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 5184kHZ
Crystals have existed for this frequency. A quick scan of the bay threw
Hi
Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency like
that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a proper
design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design for
5.00
MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I
Hi,
So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ?
I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 5184kHZ
Thx,
Gilles.
> Le 14 mars 2017 à 18:02, Richard (Rick) Karlquist a
> écrit :
>
>
>
> On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
Gilles
What is the required tuning range for the OCVXO?
Bruce
>
> On 15 March 2017 at 20:11 Gilles Clement
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ?
> I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency :
: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
not to mention +/- a few hundred ppm is not a big deal.
You can always correct for it in software. ;)
On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 8:49 AM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 3/14/17 5:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>&g
On 3/14/17 3:49 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
There is a number of more or less odd-ball frequences that occur. For
instance, 25 MHz isn't used as much as 125 MHz these days for Ethernet,
as it matches the needs of GE. 148,5 MHz is another, in that range there
is a number of numbers that fit
Rick
Yes, the 10811A is a good example of the sort of kludge that is required when
one tries to adapt the Colpitts XO to work with an overtone crystal.
However, apart from that, the design is still a lot better than those in most
of the ham publications (eg. clamp diodes on JFET gates to limit
On 3/14/17 3:17 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
So well yes, you learn the hard way what those 4-leggers do when you
have a bit of requirements. Later I dug up the patent for the process,
which was focused more on the production of one standard product and
late setting the frequency for customer
Attila,
On 03/14/2017 08:39 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:39:02 +0100
Magnus Danielson wrote:
Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good
market share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature
enough
ime-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) Karlquist
<rich...@karlquist.com>
Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
was to
On 3/14/17 12:39 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:39:02 +0100
Magnus Danielson wrote:
Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good
market share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature
enough compared to
For other common crystal frequencies, let's not forget
3.579545 MHz and 4x that - NTSC TV color burst
and others listed here...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator_frequencies
On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:39:02
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:39:02 +0100
Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good
> market share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature
> enough compared to crystals.
MEMS is quite mature, it's
Not only that. Good luck finding a datasheet with *any* analog
specifications for its internal oscillator. Here are the pins for an
external crystal. The microchip PICs are nice, they give you the goldilocks
selection for drive level a little cool, a little hot, maybe just right.
On Tue, Mar 14,
On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give some idea of some of
the additional complexity required for a overtone operation. Dissecting a few
ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 10MHz crystal and a Colpitts
sustaining
ed loose
>>>> crystals?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -=Bryan=-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick)
>>>>
not to mention +/- a few hundred ppm is not a big deal.
You can always correct for it in software. ;)
On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 8:49 AM, jimlux wrote:
> On 3/14/17 5:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple
Hi
> On Mar 14, 2017, at 8:49 AM, jimlux wrote:
>
> On 3/14/17 5:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>>> The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple
>>> crystal is tiny. The osc is often cheaper if you include board space or
>>> engineering time.
On 3/14/17 5:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple
crystal is tiny. The osc is often cheaper if you include board space or
engineering time.
Purchased in volume, the difference it the price of a crystal vs a complete XO
is enormous.
behalf of Richard (Rick) Karlquist
<rich...@karlquist.com>
Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
was to obsolete their crysta
On 3/14/17 12:19 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:
I think what he means is that the typical device sold today has four
terminals not two. It looks like a crystal because it is inside a
little silver can but has four lead wires Power, ground and "output"
and the fourth lead might not be used. It is
e
>> crystals?
>>
>>
>> -=Bryan=-
>>
>>
>>
>> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick)
>> Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com>
>> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
&
Hi
> On Mar 14, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Hal Murray wrote:
>
>
> artgod...@gmail.com said:
>> I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it doesn't need
>> to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to make
>> something crude that will
For a sinewave oscillator
http://www.wenzel.com/wp-content/uploads/xtalosc.pdf
is a start for fundamental crystals.
However the npn transistor operates a little too close to saturation for my
liking.
A small change to the biasing of the npn will fix this.
With overtone crystal operation mode
For interest, and as part of art project involving crystals. I want to show
a less third-age usage than is common in that space :).Acceleration effect
on frequency may also be featured. No way would I do it for cost or quality.
Like you, I normally use packaged oscillators for most things -
have outnumbered loose
> crystals?
>
>
> -=Bryan=-
>
>
>
> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick)
> Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com>
> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measureme
artgod...@gmail.com said:
> I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it doesn't need
> to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to make
> something crude that will resonate.
Are you doing this for fun or ???
Feasible? Sure. Cheaper? That depends.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b--FKHCFjOM
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>
> jim...@earthlink.net said:
> > what about cheap crystals for microcontrollers.. I think the Arduino,
> for
> > instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator electronics are
Hi
If your application is happy with 0.1% accuracy, you use a simple crystal that
costs
< 10 cents. If your application requires <0.001% accuracy, you probably are
better
off using a packaged oscillator.
Bob
> On Mar 13, 2017, at 8:11 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>
>
>
Hi
If you are not to picky, you can buy crystals in bulk for < 5 cents each. Why
make
them from scratch? Best guess is that in small volume, they will cost you > $20
each
to make. Labor cost something ….
Bob
> On Mar 13, 2017, at 9:09 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote:
>
> I'm
zero-charlie
>
> -Original Message- From: Bob Camp
> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 5:19 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
>
> Hi
>
> …. ummm …. errr … Add to that:
>
> X-ray gear to
I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it doesn't
need to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to
make something crude that will resonate.
On 14 Mar 2017 1:00 a.m., "Hal Murray" wrote:
jim...@earthlink.net said:
> what
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +, you wrote:
>What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
There was a WWII era "how they spend your war bonds" film that showed the
process pretty well. Diamond saws to cut the raw quartz, X-ray diffraction
to find the proper axes prior to
for a
filter project and it was amazing the amount of stuff they had there.
73/jeff/ac0c
www.ac0c.com
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
-Original Message-
From: Bob Camp
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 5:19 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye
jim...@earthlink.net said:
> what about cheap crystals for microcontrollers.. I think the Arduino, for
> instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator electronics are inside the
> Atmel part)
I assume you can save a few pennies if you use a raw crystal rather than an
oscillator. That
Hi
> On Mar 13, 2017, at 7:12 PM, jimlux wrote:
>
> On 3/13/17 3:19 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> …. ummm …. errr … Add to that:
>>
>> X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are
>> sawing
>> Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as
On 3/13/17 2:59 PM, Alan Melia wrote:
.and some micro-soldering kit to attach the plated unit to the lead
frame. Our factory used homemade hot air jets, I have no idea what the
solder was prob LMP.
Lapping a single blank is difficult, one tends to get rounded edges(even
with the best
On 3/13/17 3:19 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
…. ummm …. errr … Add to that:
X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are
sawing
Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as optically flat)
Automated / sorting X-ray gear to figure out what’s what after they are lapped
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Jim Harman wrote:
> Some of the Arduino boards, the Leonardo for example, use ceramic
> resonators,
Sorry, the Leonardo does have a crystal. The original Uno had a resonator.
--
--Jim Harman
on of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.
What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanh...@backcou
Hi
…. ummm …. errr … Add to that:
X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are
sawing
Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as optically flat)
Automated / sorting X-ray gear to figure out what’s what after they are lapped
Rounding equipment to turn the square
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 4:53 PM, jimlux wrote:
> I think the Arduino, for instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator
> electronics are inside the Atmel part)
You're right. Some of the Arduino boards, the Leonardo for example, use
ceramic resonators, which make them
la Kinali" <att...@kinali.ch>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
<time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +
Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com>
On 3/13/17 11:29 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
With a chunk of raw crystal material and a lapidary saw, blanks can be cut.
Typical FT-243/U crystal construction technology up through the 1950's:
time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.
What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanh...@backcountryaccess.c
On 3/13/17 10:09 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
A complete oscillator consists of the crystal integrated with the
electronics. A loose crystal is just a resonator, and the buyer has to
supply his own electronics. You rarely see the latter any more in
applications other than oven
On 3/13/17 8:01 AM, Adrian Godwin wrote:
The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.
What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
Lapping compound and a hunk of glass/polished granite?
You can probably buy blanks that are approximately the right
On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +
Adrian Godwin wrote:
> What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
The equipment is quite minimal:
* A diamond precision saw to cut the crystals
* Some tool to check the accuracy of the cut (orientation and thicknes)
hard
> > (Rick) Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38
> > PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
> >
> > I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
>
With a chunk of raw crystal material and a lapidary saw, blanks can be cut.
Typical FT-243/U crystal construction technology up through the 1950's:
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/popular-electronics/after-class-Quartz-Crystals-january-1957-popular-electronics.htm
It was very common for hams
m>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 8:01:39 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.
What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
On Mon, Mar 1
of Richard (Rick) Karlquist
<rich...@karlquist.com>
Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
was to obsolete their crystal controlled r
The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage.
What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ?
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David <
david.vanh...@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>
> Probably true for many things. My current design has six
Probably true for many things. My current design has six crystals, and
exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module.
Power and space considerations mostly.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
__
> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick)
> Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com>
> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
>
> I
ussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals
I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios. That's over 40 years
ago. The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or
s
I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which
was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios. That's over 40 years
ago. The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or
so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales of loose
crystals.
Rick N6RK
Hi Jim,
On 03/12/2017 10:39 PM, jimlux wrote:
On 3/12/17 5:53 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
I don't like how higher Q is confused with higher frequency stability.
As most here should know, it is a bit of a mix-up of two different
stability aspects.
That is indeed a "time-nuts" vs
On 3/12/17 5:53 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
I don't like how higher Q is confused with higher frequency stability.
As most here should know, it is a bit of a mix-up of two different
stability aspects.
That is indeed a "time-nuts" vs "frequency-nuts" level distinction.
Hi,
On 03/11/2017 10:56 PM, Bryan _ wrote:
Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom is
interesting, classic.
http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/
At the bottom is a 1964 U.S. Air Force training film:
Hi
International’s main business was re-channeling non-synthesized radios and
replacing
broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years since
the last of the
non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been dropping off
pretty steadily
for many
On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of credit,
Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on. His dad started
it in 1950, the son picked it up in 1970. It's 47 years later.
Which is stupid given that much
>From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of credit,
>
Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is getting a
huge boost in spending
> On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _ wrote:
>
> Disappearing or manufacturing just
Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom is
interesting, classic.
http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/
-=Bryan=-
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