measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors
I work with a guy who worked there for years as a CE. He still has
contacts; it's a real long shot, but I'll give it a shot.
-Dave
- Original Message -
From: Jason Rabel ja...@extremeoverclocking.com
To: time-nuts
Oddly enough it really doesn't matter how you created the code, or what
system you used to compile it on. If the interest exists in the community,
and the source code is released, someone will convert it to what is available.
-Chuck Harris
Greg Dowd wrote:
Since I either owned or created all
...@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:24 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors
I work with a guy who worked there for years as a CE. He still has
contacts; it's a real long shot, but I'll give it a shot.
-Dave
I will say that indeed it can be tough to compile things without the
hardware that used to exist.
OS9. A heck of a OS and darned if Radio Shack did not use it on the color
computer as I recall. It actually was ahead of its time compared to dos and
the likes.
So as crazy as this sounds I might
I hear that qemu will run OS-9, and there are also 6809 emulators out
there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_9 has more information.
But I suspect y'all already know this.
H
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I had not searched but good to hear there are emulators.
I'll have to take a look
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Harlan Stenn st...@ntp.org wrote:
I hear that qemu will run OS-9, and there are also 6809 emulators out
there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_9 has more information.
But I
] On
Behalf Of d.sei...@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:24 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors
I work with a guy who worked there for years as a CE. He still has
contacts; it's a real long shot, but I'll give
: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors
I wish Symmetricom would release source to the old TrueTime / Datum products...
But I'm sure most of that source code has been lost
/ thrown away.
For instance, the older network time servers are much cooler to me than the new
models. The old stuff was custom
+1 for the Willem Programmer's I had an older model (serial port
connection), but I used it TONS of times fixing corrupt BIOSes
on computers back in the days... I keep meaning to get me one of the newer USB
models... Like you said, they have various adapters
to support just about every
I just Googled bluefeather EPROM and it took me right to the Time-Nuts
post with the full address in milliseconds.
FWIW,
-John
==
+1 for the Willem Programmer's I had an older model (serial port
connection), but I used it TONS of times fixing corrupt BIOSes
on computers back
+1 for the Willem Programmer's I had an older model (serial port
connection), but I used it TONS of times fixing corrupt BIOSes
on computers back in the days... I keep meaning to get me one of the newer
USB models... Like you said, they have various adapters
to support just about every
This is slightly off on a tangent, but has to do with licenses...
I had some old Alteon equipment which I needed a firmware update for. Nortel
bought Alteon, but they continued the products and
updates (for a while).
Most the products were EOL (including the one I had), we're talking past
I wish Symmetricom would release source to the old TrueTime / Datum products...
But I'm sure most of that source code has been lost
/ thrown away.
For instance, the older network time servers are much cooler to me than the new
models. The old stuff was custom designed and
specifically written /
Actually, you are very lucky Nortel is even still answering the phone. The
stockholders were a lot less fortunate.
-John
This is slightly off on a tangent, but has to do with licenses...
I had some old Alteon equipment which I needed a firmware update for.
Nortel bought
In message 29c74a478f474f33a04876e50c6cf...@inspiron, Jason Rabel writes:
I wish Symmetricom would release source to the old TrueTime / Datum
products... But I'm sure most of that source code has been lost
Once I become supreme ruler, to sell any product costing more than
a months work on
We all start out saying, This time, we're going to archive things in an
orderly way, and do it as we go along, and it's going to be a exemplary
situation and pretty soon, as schedules get tight and budgets tighter,
that good intention goes by the wayside.
Modern source-control systems make
: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)
Hi
I've been down that road a couple of times. You get to a point where everyone
involved does indeed agree that it's not a secret anymore. Going the final
step and actually getting permission to hand out the code is often
2010 04:22
To: j...@quik.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors
Horror stories abound about organizations that need to make some minor
patch or change to source code of a popular product for some important customer
even
On 10/24/2010 05:21 AM, David I. Emery wrote:
On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 02:44:51PM -0700, J. Forster wrote:
Very true, exncept it's more like 5-10 years.
These days John is absolutely right... likely none of the
developers, none of the equipment, perhaps not even the corporate
shell of
HP had a program called NOMAS (Not Manufacturer Supported) where they did
release the source code to some of their calculator products (mainly the HP41
family) and possibly others. There are many great HP41 (and other calculators)
emulations out there because of it.
I really wish they'd do
On 10/24/2010 01:47 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
HP had a program called NOMAS (Not Manufacturer Supported) where they did
release the source code to some of their calculator products (mainly the HP41
family) and possibly others. There are many great HP41 (and other calculators)
emulations out
When I am doing production software, I check the entire tool chain into
the version control system. That way whenever you make a version you will
be making it in exactly the same way as it was originally done.
This can be difficult when there are commercial software tools in the chain.
To
Hi
We occasionally sell product designed in the late 60's or early 70's. None of
it has firmware in it. Remembering what we did use back then for tool chains
(and host hardware), I can't fathom how you would go back and update firmware
from that era if we had it. It would have to be a port to
In message 1f819cfc-630a-480c-a0d4-91f95fbda...@rtty.us, Bob Camp writes:
It would have to be a port to new tools and pray effort.
That is actually not too bad usually.
Most software from that era is written in Assembler.
The trouble starts with stuff like the HP8568 where the firmware was
What they do where I work is to have a separate Virtual Machine
for every version of tools. Like having a mothballed
computer for each one. This seemingly solves the
support problem once and for all.
Rick Karlquist N6RK
Chuck Harris wrote:
When I am doing production software, I check the
I buy a lot of 10-20 year old test and other gear. When I try to get info
on some things the reaction is usually, Oh, we havn't made that thing for
AGES now. It turns out ages is anything over about 3 months. We now
have the model which is SOO much better than that old POS, and it's
only
On 10/24/2010 06:02 PM, J. Forster wrote:
I buy a lot of 10-20 year old test and other gear. When I try to get info
on some things the reaction is usually, Oh, we havn't made that thing for
AGES now. It turns out ages is anything over about 3 months. We now
have the model which is SOO much
It was my impression that many HP (and Tek, PAR and others) Field Offices
had full manual sets for everythng they supported. I got a hardware fiche
manual for an HP total station from the Boston office.
Best,
-John
==
Charles P. Steinmetz wrote:
Approve it? I bet most
Actually, I've found that some old timers are delighted to chat about
older gear with somebody who still appreciates it.
The newbies are usually far less than helpful.
-John
===
On 10/24/2010 06:02 PM, J. Forster wrote:
I buy a lot of 10-20 year old test and other gear. When I
Hi
At least for us the process goes like:
1) Customer wants more than what's in the card file on in the electronic record
system
2) Decision is made about how bad they want it
3) Engineer (not a tech) is assigned to dig the paper data up
4) A *guess* is made about which of many thousands of
I've found engineers tend to be squirrels. A number of times they've said
to me I'll look in my files. They will often either scan it for me or
let me borrow the original informally so I can Xerox it locally.
IMO, going through Sales or making an official request costs a bunch and
ir rarely
This makes me re-think arguing with my wife about tossing the 15 linear feet of
three ring binders full of systems documentation sitting in the basement.
But not for long. I'll keep what I don't have electronically I guess, but the
SunOS 2.2 manual set can totally go in the trash.
The field
Hi all,
My first post, so I'm not sure how this will go...
I've found engineers tend to be squirrels. A number of times they've
said
to me I'll look in my files. They will often either scan it for me
or
let me borrow the original informally so I can Xerox it locally.
Of k6...@comcast.net
Sent: 22 October 2010 23:08
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)
I've got a lot of old(er) HP and Tek test gear. Built to last, the manuals
include schematics and theory of ops, and they still perform.
It's
http://www.ko4bb.com/
Regards,
David Partridge
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf
Of David Smith
Sent: 23 October 2010 03:26
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining
On 10/23/2010 01:02 AM, Chuck Harris wrote:
I don't believe the parts are failing due to structural
problems, but rather are just leaking down their buried charge.
It should be quite possible to refresh them by erasing them and
reprogramming.
If you maintain EPROM programmers for them in
Hi Magnus,
I keep an old Toshiba 1963 486 based laptop in good working condition
to allow me to run my old ADVIN U84 DOS based programmer. I check it
out from time-to-time.
I can't do much about the mask rom'd parts, though I don't think they
have any higher of a failure rate than any other
Hi Chuck,
On 10/23/2010 03:01 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
Hi Magnus,
I keep an old Toshiba 1963 486 based laptop in good working condition
to allow me to run my old ADVIN U84 DOS based programmer. I check it
out from time-to-time.
I can't do much about the mask rom'd parts, though I don't think
Hi
The issue with the mask parts is the same as pretty much all IC's. The packages
aren't quite hermetic / the passivation isn't quite perfect / the top metal
goes away over time.
Bob
On Oct 23, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Chuck Harris wrote:
Hi Magnus,
I keep an old Toshiba 1963 486 based laptop
If you are going to worry about things at that level, then it is not just the
memory devices, you'll be worrying about all the programmable parts such as
PALs, GALs, and other eplds. Then you are really looking fort some exotic
programmers.
Ironically, I bought a standalone programmer many
Precicesly why I have a basement shelf or two dedicated to old datebooks. :)
On Oct 23, 2010, at 12:44 AM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote:
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I make backup images of all my EPROMs and even bipolar devices. I even built a
device for reverse engineering secured PALs. I have a fully configured Data
I/O Unisite for programming. This machine with all the device adapters, etc
cost somebody well over $100,000
The Unisite is probably
On 10/23/2010 05:04 PM, bownes wrote:
If you are going to worry about things at that level, then it is not just the
memory devices, you'll be worrying about all the programmable parts such as
PALs, GALs, and other eplds. Then you are really looking fort some exotic
programmers.
Who said I
Hi
Like it or not, most of this gear is interesting to us because we knew it
when it was brand new. Either we had one or wanted one. As time marches on, the
memory of most of this gear will fade. My guess is that a lot of these
instruments will still be working fine long after anybody who's
The Advin U84 that I use will do all EPROMS, PALS, GALS, EPLD's, MACH, etc from
the
late 1970's up through the mid 1990's... it craps out when the 5V devices fell
out of
fashion, and 3.3V (and lower) became popular. The DAC's they used couldn't
supply enough
resolution on the supply pins.
of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)
Where is k4obb's website?
Dave W6TE
- Original Message -
From: paul swedmailto:paulsw...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time
an
old programmed chip with a newer one. Just a thought.
- Original Message -
From: Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 11:19 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)
I make backup images of all my EPROMs
and if one had the original code... could reasonably replicate an old
programmed chip with a newer one. Just a thought.
- Original Message - From: Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2010 11:19 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors
Bob wrote:
I've been down that road a couple of times. You get to a point where
everyone involved does indeed agree that it's not a secret
anymore. Going the final step and actually getting permission to
hand out the code is often impossible. You get into a nobody has
the authority to
Heathkid wrote:
Backup images are fine... but has anyone considered or tried to contact
the original programmers to get the actual code used? I'm sure there
wouldn't be any reason someone would still consider 30+ year old code a
trade secret and if one had the original code... could
Very true, except it's more like 5-10 years.
-John
==
Bob wrote:
I've been down that road a couple of times. You get to a point where
everyone involved does indeed agree that it's not a secret
anymore. Going the final step and actually getting permission to
hand out the code is
True.
I've been in warehouses with hundreds of rows of shelves of Bankers Boxes
filled with records. I doubt the stuff is even indexed.
-John
==
Heathkid wrote:
Backup images are fine... but has anyone considered or tried to contact
the original programmers to get the actual
J. Forster wrote:
True.
I've been in warehouses with hundreds of rows of shelves of Bankers Boxes
filled with records. I doubt the stuff is even indexed.
Yep.. You get to the end of your phase of the project. You've got file
cabinets and shelves full of stuff, most junk, but some useful, as
-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)
If you are going to worry about things at that level, then it is not just the
memory devices, you'll be worrying about all the programmable parts such as
PALs, GALs, and other eplds. Then you are really
: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)
True.
I've been in warehouses with hundreds of rows of shelves of Bankers Boxes
filled with records. I doubt the stuff is even indexed.
-John
==
Heathkid wrote:
Backup images are fine... but has anyone considered
measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)
True.
I've been in warehouses with hundreds of rows of shelves of Bankers Boxes
filled with records. I doubt the stuff is even indexed.
-John
On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 02:44:51PM -0700, J. Forster wrote:
Very true, except it's more like 5-10 years.
These days John is absolutely right... likely none of the
developers, none of the equipment, perhaps not even the corporate
shell of the division or department that designed the
A lot of EPROMS and PROMS are archived by BlueFeather and a couple of sites.
-John
=
I've got a lot of old(er) HP and Tek test gear. Built to last, the manuals
include schematics and theory of ops, and they still perform.
It's not the old electrolytics that scare me -- it's the
In message 1498648302.205602.1287785250803.javamail.r...@sz0110a.emeryville.ca
.mail.comcast.net, k6...@comcast.net writes:
What to do? Pop out the parts and rewrite them? Dump them to disk as well?
Make backup-copies while they have no problems.
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog
Hi
Find pin compatible replacement EPROM's while you still can. They don't make
all those small / slow / multiple supply / parts any more. Saves building all
sorts of strange adapter boards as well as re-shooting the memories.
Bob
On Oct 22, 2010, at 6:44 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In
I don't believe the parts are failing due to structural
problems, but rather are just leaking down their buried charge.
It should be quite possible to refresh them by erasing them and
reprogramming.
-Chuck Harris
Bob Camp wrote:
Hi
Find pin compatible replacement EPROM's while you still can.
I save images at k4obbs website.
I will have to look at bluefeather see what thats about.
Thanks
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote:
I don't believe the parts are failing due to structural
problems, but rather are just leaking down their buried charge.
It
Don't forget to scare up the appropriate programmer. Those are getting hard to
come by too.
On Oct 22, 2010, at 7:02 PM, Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote:
I don't believe the parts are failing due to structural
problems, but rather are just leaking down their buried charge.
It
Actually there are great sub $100 programmers really like the GQ usb
universal programmer. Handles all kinds of stuff and with an external supply
many of the quite old eproms. It does not handle the really strange ones
like I believe pmos.
But then what does anymore. Oh the goofy programmer in the
Hi
... and once you find that old programmer, a copy of the OS that will run it's
support software. Don't seem to have many Windows for Workgroups machines
running around here any more
Then you hope that there's at least one floppy drive in the universe that will
load what you *hope* is
Hi
There are a lot of the goofy rom's in the old gear. For what ever reason -
they seemed to like the odd ones a lot ...
Bob
On Oct 22, 2010, at 10:06 PM, paul swed wrote:
Actually there are great sub $100 programmers really like the GQ usb
universal programmer. Handles all kinds of stuff
Where is k4obb's website?
Dave W6TE
- Original Message -
From: paul swedmailto:paulsw...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurementmailto:time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors
:
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maintaining boatanchors (was Capacitor Failures)
I save images at k4obbs website.
I will have to look at bluefeather see what thats about.
Thanks
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Chuck Harris cfhar
Then you hope that there's at least one floppy drive in the universe that
will load what you *hope* is the right software for the programmer.
If anybody ever needs a working floppy drive, I have several that that I'm
not using. They came in refurbished PCs. I expect they work, but I
I still have my old Advin U84. It will program just about anything... except
the
really old 3 voltage parts (1702...)
-Chuck Harris
bownes wrote:
Don't forget to scare up the appropriate programmer. Those are getting hard to
come by too.
On Oct 22, 2010, at 7:02 PM, Chuck
I bought a True-USB PRO GQ-4X Willem Programmer last year from here:
http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/LeftStart.asp?idCategory=27
You can look at the list of devices it programs online. For a current
list, just download and run the latest programming software. You don't
need the programmer
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