On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 02:29:12 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
From: Judy Taylor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
JD what is wrong with just allowing the scripture
to say what it says rather than striving to make it conform to some
doctrine built by men?
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 03:27:18 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hello Bill. thanks for the post and the thoughts.
Apparently, I missed reading the last sentence or two below, just
prior to Dean's quote of Wesley.
Dean, I believe there is a Father, a Son and a Holy
Spirit. The
What difference does age make Bill - there are plenty
of old fools around -
but I am inJohn's generation and we are both
grandparents.
On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:09:21 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
. . .my dear -- I think I
am older than you.
I have no way of knowing, for
Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more
concerned about being him on that day.
On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint
Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's
too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be
JD,
I may be mistaken but I get the idea you are constantly
striving over these "Jesus is God" and
"Eternal Son" issues to try to conform scripture to the
teachings of the Church Fathers or what
is known as "Orthodoxy" extra Biblical teachings that
have been handed down generationally.
Why
JT,
I also may be mistaken but I get the idea that
you've just offered up the beginnings of a trinitarian understanding of God's
reconciling work in Christ by the Spirit. The Father is God. Jesus is God/Man.
The Spirit is God. God alone saves/reconciles/redeems/restores.
- Original
Why do you say "beginnings" Lance
I don't see "trinitarian understanding" anywhere in the
Word of God - I use the word Godhead which means
the same thing andhave been saying all along that
understanding must come through God's Word by God's
Spirit so I am not really saying anything
Language/Terminology:Which words shall we use
then? If we utilize only words employed in the Bible then, shall we restrict
ourselves to the languages in which they were originally written? If we do this
then which mss shall we draw from?
You said 'seems to me that JESUS BEING GOD/MAN IS
cd: John for me it is difficult to grasp the full spectrum of what the other person is conveying in this medium. I believe this holds true for the entire group as I have wittinessed other becoming angry for this type of simple misunderstanding. In the below we agree entirely andI do admit to a
Judy, here is the perfect example of what Lance has been telling you these past couple of days. Look at this exchanget:
Why are you saying this? The DEFINITION is not found in that text and I check the KJ just to be sure that we were not arguing from different versions. It ain't there !!
It
Judy, do you know what it means when a word is italicized in the KJ?
I'm not into quibbling over Gk words JD;
Yeh, we wouldn't want to accuse you of quibbling. You know full well that the italicized words in the KJ (aren't you one of them there KJ onlyist peoples?) means THAT THE WORD IS
You need "understanding" which comes by way of the Holy Spirit, rather than Barthian "rationalizing" JD
I probably have had the Spirit longer than you, my dear -- I think I am older than you. I was certainly more prolific than you. jd
You are in no position to make this evaluation JD. Jesus
Oh !! So now I am "an old fool." I'll have you know that those words are reserved for my wife, only. Well, my wife and my kids.and neighbor Fred . never mind.
jd
-- Original message
Actually, the G man has given us one of Dylan's better quotes.
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day.
On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Well,
Judy, it is critically important to me that Jesus be God. It is in this world, on this earth and clothed with the same flesh as I that Jesus establishes Himself and His mission as that which continues the work of the Israel of God. I serve Him because of what He did in this world. I worship Him
Beans. I wasn't finished with that last post.
I worship Him because of who He is in this world.
Jesus tells us that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him -- in this world curing His incarnation. Take a glass of orange juice and mix in a glass of water. In time, the two ellements will
Amen!!
-- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cd: John for me it is difficult to grasp the full spectrum of what the other person is conveying in this medium. I believe this holds true for the entire group as I have wittinessed other becoming angry
Yes, DM does come across differently than he writes. Good for him. Too bad (at times) for those who have to read him.
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
interestg
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 07:31:27 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[i] had the
DH, this was on another site - from a discussion about the two Mormon churches:
The reason the Utah LDS don't use the Joseph Smith translation is because the Reorginized LDS was found to be the sucessor of the Church Joseph Smith started by a court and it was given the copyright to the JST.
It was a simple question, Judy. Why does it matter to you if
we know how old you are?
You are right about the old fools--
andvanity.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Saturday,
Jesus is fully God.
Jesus is fully Man.
Two natures in one person, united.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 5:49
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Reconciliation
to the Father through
You must not be understanding JD; I said in my last
post on this matter that for me meaning
is a whole lot more important than quibbling over Greek
words and the meaning of Col 1:19
is reinterated in 2 Cor 5:19
Where you will notice that it does
say it was God (the Holy Spirit) in Christ
JD, this is not worth any more bandwidth - you
are making a mountain out of a molehill ... a little teeny
molehill
at that. Matthew was not being original
here. So what if he defines the meaning of the name
Emmanuel?
A Hebrew reading Hebrew could have done it also
during the time of Isaiah
Chapter and verse please Bill
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 07:50:18 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Jesus is fully God.
Jesus is fully Man.
Two natures in one person, united.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To:
What's the problem with "reading him"?
Same argument some have with God; they like the
concept, but can not stomach His Word until modified.
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 14:00:16 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Yes, DM does come across differently than he writes. Good for
him. Too bad (at times)
It's a synthesis, Judy, of the entire witness of Scripture.
Read the Bible.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:48
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 07:49:22 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Language/Terminology:Which words shall we
use then? If we utilize only words employed in the Bible then, shall we
restrict ourselves to the languages in which they were originally written? If
we do this then
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 13:39:57 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Beans. I wasn't finished with that last post.
I worship Him because of who He is in this world.
Well then, what's the problem? He is presently
in this world by His Spirit
Jesus tells us that He is in the Father
2 Cor 5.19 ... that God was in Christ reconciling the world
...
In the one person of Christ God was reconciling the world.
Here we see what the fathers called the hypostatic union:God and humanity
together, fully represented and fully reconciled in the constitution of this one
person,
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/6/2006 8:49:13 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Christ as the incarnate God(to Dean)
Well, I am kind of liking the new Dean.
Anyway -- maybe the difference is found in our function
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/6/2006 9:56:15 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism Freemasonry
kidding, of course. Actually, I am going to use the bat at the local batting cages. The closest thing to physical
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/6/2006 10:08:42 PM
Subject: Re: FW: Re: [TruthTalk] Catholics and Idols (to Dean)
How do you define Idolatry John? If you are the one whom decides whatIdol is or is not-what do you do
NOTHING! However, I'm prepared to say that Judy,
past, present and, future, cannot 'reconcile' herself to this understanding.
Thus my point concerning 'why'.
- Original Message -
From:
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: January 07, 2006 10:52
Subject:
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/7/2006 9:06:09 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Is this true? DH
DH, this was on another site - from a discussion about the two Mormon churches:
The reason the Utah LDS don't use the
My question, Dean, is where is the RAPTURE in the
Bible? My question, Dean, is where is sinless perfection in the Bible...and
on
- Original Message -
From:
Dean
Moore
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: January 07, 2006 10:48
Subject: Re: FW: Re: [TruthTalk]
I'll tell you what, Judy, your constant accusation that we
(John, Lance, myself, et al) are conforming to the Church fathers, is nothing
but an ad hom and needs to stop, so we can get on to discussing the truth of
this matter. How about a compromise? We'll be content to accept your charge
cd: Good to see you are not in total disagreement with Street
Preaching John. Would you care to go and wittiness some of that in person in
order to better understand why we preach in the manner we do? New Orleans Mardi
Gras Tues Feb 23- March 1 -We havefood and lodging but the expense for
The followig from the internet explains that
this is a doctrine ppl are incapable of fully understanding - that being the
case IMO it is just
mouthing someone elses words. God gives
understandig
The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an
attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God
PS: To accept this doctrine one would have to deny the
fall because the fact is that all are born by procreation into
the first Adam who is under a curse. Jesus is the
second Adam who is begotten rather than procreated; he had no
sin nature, was under no curse. He was holy at
his birth and
- Original Message -
From: Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/7/2006 11:23:39 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Reconciliation to the Father through Christ (JD)
I'll tell you what, Judy, your constant accusation that we (John, Lance, myself, et al) are conforming to the
- Original Message -
From: Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/7/2006 11:35:38 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Christ as the incarnate God(to Dean)
cd: Good to see you are not in total disagreement with Street Preaching John. Would you care to go and wittiness some
This is just plain silly Bill but then I guess it is no
sillier than the Church Fathers chasing down men they claim are made
in the image of God to
killthem over a doctrinal dispute like there is no Holy Spirit and no God
in heaven who clearly
says "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" I
- Original Message -
From: Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/7/2006 11:04:55 AM
Subject: Re: FW: Re: [TruthTalk] Catholics and Idols (to Dean)
My question, Dean, is where is the RAPTURE in the Bible? My question, Dean, is where is sinless perfection in the
Let us await Judy's response on this. 'Doctrines of
Men'? All you already aware of alternate readings of these passages? Are
you also aware that your reading of both of these is a minority
reading?
- Original Message -
From:
Dean
Moore
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
- Original Message -
From: Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/7/2006 12:09:24 PM
Subject: Re: FW: Re: [TruthTalk] Catholics and Idols (to Dean)
Let us await Judy's response on this. 'Doctrines of Men'? All you already aware of alternate readings of these
An interesting aside, perhaps, on the terminology of
"hypostatic union": The Greek word hupostasis is a compound of
hupos which means "under" and stasis which means "to
stand"; hence in this phrase we have the "understanding" union. That
understanding maynot be exhaustive, but it is real
. . . a doctrine ppl
are incapable of fully understanding . . . God gives understanding
Judy, do you fully understand God?
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006
Yeah, either that or it will require that you correct your
understanding on some of the issues you raise.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 9:55
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christ as
By the way, Judy, I was serious about
this.
- Original Message -
From:
Dean
Moore
- Original Message -
From:
Taylor
I'll tell you what, Judy, your constant accusation that we
(John, Lance, myself, et al) are conforming to the
"I don't accuse you ..."
"You are constantly striving
over these 'Jesus is God' and 'Eternal Son'
issues to try to conform scripture to the teachings of the Church Fathers
..."
This, Judy, is an accusation. It is offensive and wearisome.
Don't do it again.
Bill
- Original Message
Probably so Dean but I am not convinced that either of
these willstand through the fire in that day themselves.
Just like Bob Dylan they should have been
examining themselves rather than trying to be the standard and
condemning all thosewho did not measure up
to their plumbline.
On Sat, 7
Either what Bill?
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 10:33:35 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Yeah, either that or it will require that you correct your
understanding on some of the issues you raise. Bill
From: Judy Taylor
PS: To accept this doctrine one would have to deny
From my side Bill, it is also offensive and wearisome
when ppl want to constantly strive over these issues.
Why do you say "don't do it again" as though I am your
child - are you an up and coming moderator?
Perry would not speak like this to another
believer.
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 10:41:31
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/6/2006 11:43:47 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Christ as the incarnate God
couple of thoughts, Dean. I do not think we disagree at all on point #4. The union that is the being we
- Original Message -
From: Judy Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/7/2006 12:36:18 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Reconciliation to the Father through Christ (JD)
Probably so Dean but I am not convinced that either of these willstand
It is never a mole hill to deny Christ as God !!
jd
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
JD, this is not worth any more bandwidth - you are making a mountain out of a molehill ... a little teeny molehill
at that. Matthew was not being original
The word tranlated "pleased" in the gk text is the word in question. "Father" or "God" is atached to that word. That attachment is a personification and does not actually , literally , exist in the text. There are good reasons for this personificiation, I admit. I just think that if we allow for
DAVEH: I suspect we all come across a bit differently in reality than
in the way we reveal ourselves through our written thoughts.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, DM does come across differently than he writes. Good for
him. Too bad (at times) for those who have to read him.
DAVEH: IMO, neither conclusion is correct.
Dean Moore wrote:
DH, this was on another site - from a discussion about the
two Mormon churches:
The reason the Utah LDS don't use the
Joseph Smith translation is
because the Reorginized LDS was found to be the
Dean writes:
cd: Amen John but on that shady side I want to be sure that "thought" did come from God and not man-but I can also agree that the Holy Spirit can teach us which is of God and which is of man. This fear of being sure stems from the fact that I dwell uponthe read word almost
I don't deny Christ is God any more than I deny
the Holy Spirit is God or the Father is God JD
However, you have to leave scripture as it is
written rather than try and adjust it to suit doctrine.
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 18:19:36 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It is never a mole hill to deny
- Original Message -
From: Debbie Sawczak
To: Lance Muir
Sent: January 07, 2006 15:55
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christ as the incarnate God
[I'm quite excited because in the course of writing
the second paragraph below, I became aware of knowing something
important.]
From what
Dean, Don't get me wrong, here. I do not believe the Catholic Church speaks for God. I am talking about the members (that I know, personally) and not the RCC. Maybe I cannot argue this point without appearing to be supportive of Catholicism.
When you speak of the Pope forgiving sins -- it helps
- Original Message -
From: Debbie Sawczak
To: Lance Muir
Sent: January 07, 2006 15:07
Subject: Re: FW: Re: [TruthTalk] Catholics and Idols (to
Dean)
"a doctoring of men"--what a great
pun!!
D
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To: Debbie Sawczak
January
6 - The Delusions of 2005
Since deception and
delusion are strong forces in the last days, I have come
Jack Benny couldn't have said it better !! :--)
What do you say, Judy. I'M IN on this one
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'll tell you what, Judy, your constant accusation that we (John, Lance, myself, et al) are conforming to
Hmm - that not a bad a idea!!
-- Original message -- From: "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
cd: Good to see you are not in total disagreement with Street Preaching John. Would you care to go and wittiness some of that in person in order to better understand
Perry doesn't seem to want to get involved period. That aside,
I said it like l did because I meant it that much. You've ended dozens of
discussions with this kind of ad hom garbage. People finally justwear out
andgive up. In the meantime the real issues are almost always lost. Who
gives a
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:38:05 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Perry doesn't seem to want to get involved period. That
aside, I said it like l did because I meant it that much.
Don't you think it more than a little arrogant
Bill; after all this is not your classroom.
Lance would you please tell me why you must run
everything by this woman? Do you think she is smart or
something like that? She may be but she knows
nothing of what I am about - she hasn't a clue so why
complicate things further with one more pointless and
useless opinion?.
On Sat, 7 Jan
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/7/2006 4:22:45 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Christ as the incarnate God(to Dean)
Hmm - that not a bad a idea!!
cd: John/ Bill Pray on this matter and in a few day
I'lltell you what, Dean: I would be willing
to endure :) a couple days with street preachers if you would be willing to
do the same with us and our like. Baxter Kreuger is a professor friend who lives
in Jackson and has a ministry down there. We (John and I) were planning on going
down
Blainerb: What John
andbrother Moore have written belowis the crux of what God
meant when he told Joseph Smith that the Protestant ministers of the day taught
doctrines of men, which had a form of Godliness, but denied the Power
thereof. In other words, they denied the "greater
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 18:17:18 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The word tranlated "pleased" in the gk text is the word in
question. "Father" or "God" is atached to that word.
That attachment is a personification and does not actually , literally , exist
in the text. There are good
Blainerb: Rev Jan Markell has it
right (see below)--more evidence of truth of the warning from God to Joseph
Smith: "They teach for doctrine the commandments of men, having a form of
Godliness, but denying the power thereof."
In a message dated 1/7/2006 2:18:10 P.M. Mountain Standard
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 16:02:57 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
- Original Message -
From: Debbie Sawczak
To: Lance Muir
Sent: January 07, 2006 15:55
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christ as the incarnate God
[I'm quite excited because in the course of
Three in one? You have admitted to the idea of the Trinity, whether you intended to or not.
jd
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I don't deny Christ is God any more than I deny the Holy Spirit is God or the Father is God JD
However, you have
Thanks, Dean
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From:
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: 1/6/2006 11:43:47 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [TruthTalk] Christ as the incarnate God
Hey Judy, I've got an idea: Why don't you go to the desert for
about forty years.We'll see if when you get back, you've gained some
understanding.
Bye now.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc:
-- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:38:05 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Perry doesn't seem to want to get involved period. That aside, I said it like l did because I meant it that much.
Don't you think it
60 years old. I think I am five or six years younger than Judy -- that would make her the matriarch of the forum.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From:
To:
Dean, I do not fly and I live way out here on the left coast. If N.O. were within 8-10hours, I would do it. I am hoping to come out to see G and Bill in the late spring. Maybe we could at least get together then.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL
I missed this post. Or at least we can meet ,grab a meal and talk. Two against one sounds good to me !! I am kidding (about the two on one) but not about the fellowship.
Let's figure out a way to make it work.
jd
-- Original message -- From: "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"..when the Word of God is set before us in the Scriptures, it [is]
certainly most absurd to imagine..a fleeting evanescent voice..sent out into the
air..[partic while the apostles] tell us that the worlds were created
by the Son..who is himself the eternal and essential Word of the
I certianly don't imagine anything like that .. so what
does this have to do with the price of fish?
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 18:25:43 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
"..when the Word of God is set before us in the Scriptures, it
[is] certainly most absurd to imagine..a fleeting evanescent
I don't use the word "trinity" since I prefer
Godhead but have never believed any differently. Where
have you been?
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:22:23 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Three in one? You have admitted to the idea of the Trinity,
whether you intended to or not.
jd
ask an
apostle
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 22:34:34 -0500 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I certianly don't imagine anything like that .. so
what does this have to do with the price of fish?
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 18:25:43 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
"..when the Word of God is
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 01:11:32 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:38:05 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Perry doesn't seem to want to get involved period. That
aside, I said it like l did because I meant it that much.
Don't you think it more
Better totake your own counsel first Bill before
you try to foist it on others. Bye
On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 18:20:08 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hey Judy, I've got an idea: Why don't you go to the desert
for about forty years.We'll see if when you get back, you've gained some
I guess I missed something--whatever happened to Deegan, my ol' sparring
buddy? I got really far behind, so instead of reading a lot of the posts,
I deleted like crazy--probably did not answer some posts as well as missing out
on what happened to him.
Blainerb
AMEN to Dylan's insightful song--liked especially the part about sweatin' .
. . maybe like in the Garden of G? :)
Blainerb
In a message dated 1/7/2006 6:29:13 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Actually, the G man has given us one of Dylan's better quotes.
Judge not that ye be not judged--
Blainerb
In a message dated 1/7/2006 3:23:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more
concerned about being him on that day.
On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
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