Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Like the storm thingy, the twin tower thingy, the
arabs-in-general thingy...etc.
- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 23, 2006 23:17
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
I was once
interviewed on Pat Robertsons TV program, and have a lot of respect for
him. But I do wonder why he says something that is absolutely true and
then apologizes for it later. izzy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David MillerSent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:55
PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
I know many scientists who are Christians and hold to
theistic evolution. That does not mean that they bring that view in when
they practice science. They are not allowed and they will be the first
to tell you.
I don't see myself as a fundamentalist, but I'm not
going to fight with those who characterize me as
such.
I like Pat Robertson. He is not a dufus from my
perspective.
I do not favor the idea of forcing the teaching of
creation in schools. I am against the notion of forbidding teachers from
dealing with this subject matter. I'm against theidea of it being
illegal to teach creationscience in schools.I have known
many high school teachers that would not have the problem that you outline
below.
David
Miller
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ;
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
Thursday, March 23, 2006 4:20 PM
Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] on Creationism
Daivd, I have several books on my
shelves written by Christian scientists proclaiming some version of theistic
evolution.
Secondly,you and are both members
of the fundamentalist community. If you have missed the M.O. of
any number of our brethren, I haven't.
Look at Pat Robertson. A Dufus of major
proportions. He has his foot in his mouth so often they
now measure that cavity in terms of shoe size
!!
The cause of Christ would
becomeeven more difficult if we allowed this to
happen. At least the way it is now, we
(the Christian community) can somewhat hide these guys from
society. The KKK was made up of mostly Christian
claiming people.
Can you imagine? "OK,
students,we have just completedour study on
evolution from a scientific point of view. Now , we enter into
the Christian notion of creation -- or should I say the
several versions of same !! (and the teacher smiles.) We only
had space in the text book for five such theories. I personally do not
believe any of them -- and I need to make that clear to
you before "they" pass some law that says I cannot influence your thinking
with such a statement -- but I will do the best I
can.Before I begin, how many of you care about any
of this... show of hands, please
. I said "show of " .
oh, I get get it. Well , we have to consider each of these
accounts of creation, anyway, and there will be a test. I
must say, it seems a bit odd for me. I mean, I wil l be making a
presentation of a biblical nature, but , of course, we are not
permitted to present from the Bible -- so I really do not know
why this is not being done in church .. but here
goes
..."
jd
-- Original message --
From: "David Miller"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I really do not understand how it is that you
think Fundies have destroyed any opportunity for creationism in
schools. The problem is that the scientific establishment has taken
the position that any mention of a Creator departs from science.
Lance's position of theistic evolution is flatly rejected by
science. So the Fundies are not hindering creationism in
schools. Scientists are. Are you really blind to this
fact?
David
Miller
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent:
Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:06 AM
Subject: Re:
[TruthTalk] on Creationism
With much debate, the Fundies destroy any
opportunity to place "creationism" into the school p
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
It does. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 23:14 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] on Creationism It is also absurd that someone who claims to believe that all truth comes from God would not consider that all true science does the same. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David MillerSent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:46 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Supply all the names of real scientists that you like, Lance. It does not change the facts about the position of the scientific establishment. I'm talking about organizations like theNational Academy of Sciences. They make a big legal case concerning howcreation science is religion and therefore it is ILLEGAL to teach it in public schools. Any mention of a Creator makes it RELIGION instead of SCIENCE. Their position is that science and religion occupytwo separate realms of human experience. They accept the fact thatmany scientists are deeply religious, but they insist that the two cannot be combined. Therefore,any mention of a Creator in science is forbidden. I reject the notion that science and religion do not overlap. By the way, the NAS also makes bigmention of how most religious groups have concluded that evolution is not at odds with their descriptions of creation and human origins. In other words,the scientific establishmentloves guys like R. Williams who help them keep the acknowledgement of God out of the classroom. David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism David says that 'the scientific establishment has...'. Look, David, if the generalization works for you then, OK! I already told you that I'd supply the names of real, as opposed to pretend, scientists, who are themselves believers (I supplied a couple of names) who hold to a variety of positions on this matter. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 14:20 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism I really do not understand how it is that you think Fundies have destroyed any opportunity for creationism in schools. The problem is that the scientific establishment has taken the position that any mention of a Creator departs from science. Lance's position of theistic evolution is flatly rejected by science. So the Fundies are not hindering creationism in schools. Scientists are. Are you really blind to this fact? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place "creationism" into the school programs for the reason stated below. Amen. And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while, at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side. Scary. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Censorship you say, David? TT just fired a censor?
Christians can be no more trusted than anyone else. I'd not expect you to agree
on this though in granting 'Senator' CDM a stint you illustrated my
point.
- Original Message -
From:
David Miller
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 23, 2006 16:49
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Let the teacher decide what is relevant. They don't teach all the
competing ideas of evolution either, so what is the problem? The problem
of censorship should concern you because the truth is not afraid of
evidence. You should be concerned whenever one side uses legal maneuvers
and rhetoric to prevent the other side from being heard.
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ;
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:50
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
And who is going to present these competing versions of creation
-- the average Joe school teacher ?? Do you have any
idea what an antagonist educator would do with such
information? Actually, this "creationism in the school"
thingy is really starting to sound like a bad idea !!
jd
--
Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You remind me, Lance, of another show... Back to the Future, where
Biff is hitting Marty McFly on the head, "Hello, Hello, Anybody
Home? Think, McFly, Think."
To further elucidate my point:having numerous creationist
models of origins is not a reason to exclude them from our educational
system. There are numerous models of evolution as well. The
premise by which you think you can rest your case is
ratherelusive.
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 1:09
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Homer Simpson, while attempting to steal a
candy bar from a vending machine, got his arm stuck. He dragged that one
over to another for a second attempt thus getting both arms securely
locked in. Somehow, with his nose, he managed to dial 911 for
assistance. The operator asked Homer 'Are each of your hands wrapped
around candy bars?' Homer replied, 'your point being?'
David: You sound a little like Homer in
your reply.
- Original Message -
From:
David
Miller
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 23, 2006 10:59
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Lance
wrote:
There are as many
'species' of creationists as fish.
The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your
point?
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006
7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
There are as many 'species' of
creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of
computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already
come up with. I rest my case your honor.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy Taylor
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 23, 2006
06:44
Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw:
Williams on Creationism
Why advocate teaching what you don't know
JD? As has already been noted "Only when we
prove
evolution do we need to concern ourselves
with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence
that
this level of proof has not been achieved
includes the long list of scientists and others who have
abandoned
Darwinism because they became convinced
that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So
why
would you want to warp young minds with
useless information that is not proven? judyt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the
scho
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Keep this triadic structure in mind: God/World/Man.
Reality/truth is the objective. If the foregoing is applicable to a scientific
endeavour then, bring it with you. In 'reality' one cannot avoid 'reality' in
pursuit of the truth..
- Original Message -
From:
David Miller
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 23, 2006 16:54
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
I know many scientists who are Christians and hold to theistic
evolution. That does not mean that they bring that view in when they
practice science. They are not allowed and they will be the first to
tell you.
I don't see myself as a fundamentalist, but I'm not going to fight with
those who characterize me as such.
I like Pat Robertson. He is not a dufus from my perspective.
I do not favor the idea of forcing the teaching of creation in
schools. I am against the notion of forbidding teachers from dealing
with this subject matter. I'm against theidea of it being illegal
to teach creationscience in schools.I have known many high
school teachers that would not have the problem that you outline below.
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ;
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 4:20
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Daivd, I have several books on my shelves written by
Christian scientists proclaiming some version of theistic
evolution.
Secondly,you and are both members of the
fundamentalist community. If you have missed the M.O. of any
number of our brethren, I haven't.
Look at Pat Robertson. A Dufus of major proportions.
He has his foot in his mouth so often they now measure that
cavity in terms of shoe size !!
The cause of Christ would becomeeven more difficult
if we allowed this to happen. At least the
way it is now, we (the Christian community) can somewhat hide these
guys from society. The KKK was made up of mostly
Christian claiming people.
Can you imagine? "OK, students,we have just
completedour study on evolution from a scientific point of
view. Now , we enter into the Christian notion of creation
-- or should I say the several versions of same !! (and
the teacher smiles.) We only had space in the text book for five such
theories. I personally do not believe any of them -- and I
need to make that clear to you before "they" pass some law that says I
cannot influence your thinking with such a statement -- but I
will do the best I can.Before I begin, how many of
you care about any of this... show of hands,
please . I said "show of "
. oh, I get get it. Well , we have to consider each
of these accounts of creation, anyway, and there will be a
test. I must say, it seems a bit odd for me. I mean, I wil
l be making a presentation of a biblical nature, but , of
course, we are not permitted to present from the Bible --
so I really do not know why this is not being done in church
.. but here goes
..."
jd
--
Original message -- From: "David Miller"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I really do not understand how it is that you think Fundies have
destroyed any opportunity for creationism in schools. The problem is
that the scientific establishment has taken the position that any mention
of a Creator departs from science. Lance's position of theistic
evolution is flatly rejected by science. So the Fundies are not
hindering creationism in schools. Scientists are. Are you
really blind to this fact?
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006
10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place
"creationism" into the school programs for the reason stated
below. Amen.
And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring
hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run
helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while,
at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side.
Scary.
jd
--
Original message -- From: "Lance Muir"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
There are as many 'speci
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Misinformation here, Lance. TruthTalk did not fire anybody. The
moderator resigned. I still think he would have done a fine job if he had
allowedsome dialogue about what he was doing.
I do agree, however, that Christians (and you know how I use
thisterm)cannot be trusted anymore than anyone else.
The liberty of the teacher should be allowed, whether we trust the teacher
or not. Our ability to communicate with the teacher should be enough to
help curb any undesirablebehavior. I favor communication and
persuasion over censorship. How about you?
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 4:49
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Censorship you say, David? TT just fired a
censor? Christians can be no more trusted than anyone else. I'd not expect you
to agree on this though in granting 'Senator' CDM a stint you illustrated my
point.
- Original Message -
From:
David
Miller
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 23, 2006 16:49
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Let the teacher decide what is relevant. They don't teach all the
competing ideas of evolution either, so what is the problem? The
problem of censorship should concern you because the truth is not afraid of
evidence. You should be concerned whenever one side uses legal
maneuvers and rhetoric to prevent the other side from being heard.
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:50
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
And who is going to present these competing versions of
creation -- the average Joe school teacher
?? Do you have any idea what an antagonist educator would do
with such information? Actually, this "creationism in
the school" thingy is really starting to sound like a bad idea !!
jd
--
Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You remind me, Lance, of another show... Back to the Future, where
Biff is hitting Marty McFly on the head, "Hello, Hello, Anybody
Home? Think, McFly, Think."
To further elucidate my point:having numerous
creationist models of origins is not a reason to exclude them from our
educational system. There are numerous models of evolution as
well. The premise by which you think you can rest your case is
ratherelusive.
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006
1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Homer Simpson, while attempting to steal
a candy bar from a vending machine, got his arm stuck. He dragged that
one over to another for a second attempt thus getting both arms
securely locked in. Somehow, with his nose, he managed to dial 911 for
assistance. The operator asked Homer 'Are each of your hands wrapped
around candy bars?' Homer replied, 'your point being?'
David: You sound a little like Homer in
your reply.
- Original Message -
From:
David
Miller
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 23, 2006
10:59
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Lance
wrote:
There are as many
'species' of creationists as fish.
The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your
point?
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23,
2006 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
There are as many 'species' of
creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of
computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already
come up with. I rest my case your honor.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy Taylor
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 2
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
I'd Amen that, David.
- Original Message -
From:
David Miller
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 24, 2006 08:40
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Misinformation here, Lance. TruthTalk did not fire anybody.
The moderator resigned. I still think he would have done a fine job if
he had allowedsome dialogue about what he was doing.
I do agree, however, that Christians (and you know how I use
thisterm)cannot be trusted anymore than anyone else.
The liberty of the teacher should be allowed, whether we trust the
teacher or not. Our ability to communicate with the teacher should be
enough to help curb any undesirablebehavior. I favor communication
and persuasion over censorship. How about you?
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 4:49
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Censorship you say, David? TT just fired a
censor? Christians can be no more trusted than anyone else. I'd not expect
you to agree on this though in granting 'Senator' CDM a stint you
illustrated my point.
- Original Message -
From:
David
Miller
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 23, 2006 16:49
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Let the teacher decide what is relevant. They don't teach all
the competing ideas of evolution either, so what is the problem? The
problem of censorship should concern you because the truth is not afraid
of evidence. You should be concerned whenever one side uses legal
maneuvers and rhetoric to prevent the other side from being heard.
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:50
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
And who is going to present these competing versions of
creation -- the average Joe school teacher
?? Do you have any idea what an antagonist educator would do
with such information? Actually, this "creationism in
the school" thingy is really starting to sound like a bad idea !!
jd
--
Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You remind me, Lance, of another show... Back to the Future,
where Biff is hitting Marty McFly on the head, "Hello, Hello, Anybody
Home? Think, McFly, Think."
To further elucidate my point:having numerous
creationist models of origins is not a reason to exclude them from our
educational system. There are numerous models of evolution as
well. The premise by which you think you can rest your case is
ratherelusive.
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006
1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Homer Simpson, while attempting to
steal a candy bar from a vending machine, got his arm stuck. He
dragged that one over to another for a second attempt thus getting
both arms securely locked in. Somehow, with his nose, he managed to
dial 911 for assistance. The operator asked Homer 'Are each of your
hands wrapped around candy bars?' Homer replied, 'your point
being?'
David: You sound a little like Homer in
your reply.
- Original Message -
From:
David
Miller
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 23, 2006
10:59
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Lance
wrote:
There are as many
'species' of creationists as fish.
The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your
point?
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23,
2006 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] o
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Except in Canada that is --- Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd Amen that, David. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 24, 2006 08:40 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Misinformation here, Lance. TruthTalk did not fire anybody. The moderator resigned. I still think he would have done a fine job if he had allowed some dialogue about what he was doing. I do agree, however, that Christians (and you know how I use this term) cannot be trusted anymore than anyone else. The liberty of the teacher should be allowed, whether we trust the teacher or not. Our ability to communicate with the teacher should be enough to help curb any undesirable behavior. I favor communication and persuasion over censorship. How about you? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 4:49 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Censorship you say, David? TT just fired a censor? Christians can be no more trusted than anyone else. I'd not expect you to agree on this though in granting 'Senator' CDM a stint you illustrated my point. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 16:49 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Let the teacher decide what is relevant. They don't teach all the competing ideas of evolution either, so what is the problem? The problem of censorship should concern you because the truth is not afraid of evidence. You should be concerned whenever one side uses legal maneuvers and rhetoric to prevent the other side from being heard. David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism And who is going to present these competing versions of creation -- the average Joe school teacher ?? Do you have any idea what an antagonist educator would do with such information? Actually, this creationism in the school thingy is really starting to sound like a bad idea !! jd -- Original message -- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] You remind me, Lance, of another show... Back to the Future, where Biff is hitting Marty McFly on the head, Hello, Hello, Anybody Home? Think, McFly, Think. To further elucidate my point: having numerous creationist models of origins is not a reason to exclude them from our educational system. There are numerous models of evolution as well. The premise by which you think you can rest your case is rather elusive. David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Homer Simpson, while attempting to steal a candy bar from a vending machine, got his arm stuck. He dragged that one over to another for a second attempt thus getting both arms securely locked in. Somehow, with his nose, he managed to dial 911 for assistance. The operator asked Homer 'Are each of your hands wrapped around candy bars?' Homer replied, 'your point being?' David: You sound a little like Homer in your reply. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 10:59 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Lance wrote: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your point? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern
RE: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
And yet you object to such truth being taught to children; favoring something else instead. Pathetic. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 3:28 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism It does. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 23:14 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] on Creationism It is also absurd that someone who claims to believe that all truth comes from God would not consider that all true science does the same. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:46 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Supply all the names of real scientists that you like, Lance. It does not change the facts about the position of the scientific establishment. I'm talking about organizations like theNational Academy of Sciences. They make a big legal case concerning howcreation science is religion and therefore it is ILLEGAL to teach it in public schools. Any mention of a Creator makes it RELIGION instead of SCIENCE. Their position is that science and religion occupytwo separate realms of human experience. They accept the fact thatmany scientists are deeply religious, but they insist that the two cannot be combined. Therefore,any mention of a Creator in science is forbidden. I reject the notion that science and religion do not overlap. By the way, the NAS also makes bigmention of how most religious groups have concluded that evolution is not at odds with their descriptions of creation and human origins. In other words,the scientific establishmentloves guys like R. Williams who help them keep the acknowledgement of God out of the classroom. David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism David says that 'the scientific establishment has...'. Look, David, if the generalization works for you then, OK! I already told you that I'd supply the names of real, as opposed to pretend, scientists, who are themselves believers (I supplied a couple of names) who hold to a variety of positions on this matter. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 14:20 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism I really do not understand how it is that you think Fundies have destroyed any opportunity for creationism in schools. The problem is that the scientific establishment has taken the position that any mention of a Creator departs from science. Lance's position of theistic evolution is flatly rejected by science. So the Fundies are not hindering creationism in schools. Scientists are. Are you really blind to this fact? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place creationism into the school programs for the reason stated below. Amen. And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while, at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side. Scary. jd -- Original message -- From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with harmonizing evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose. John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests God is somehow in control as the Creator(?) If this could be presented into the secular system of education without it being coopted by the fundies -- go for it. But I doubt that it can. What a shame that radical fundamentalism within Christiandom forces the Body to dismiss a perfectly wonderful opportunity to introduce the Creator to others. In case you did not notice,the fundamentalists are notcausing the acknowledgement of our Creator to be forbidden inschools. It is the liberal loonies like thisArchbishop of Canterbury who are doing this. David Miller Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
But only One Creator and only one kind who believe what is written as is. Take your pick. I see no point in running after more darkness and/or presumption. On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 07:02:56 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. From: Judy Taylor Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose. John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests God is somehow in control as the Creator(?) If this could be presented into the secular system of education without it being coopted by the fundies -- go for it. But I doubt that it can. What a shame that radical fundamentalism within Christiandom forces the Body to dismiss a perfectly wonderful opportunity to introduce the Creator to others. In case you did not notice,the fundamentalists are notcausing the acknowledgement of our Creator to be forbidden inschools. It is the liberal loonies like thisArchbishop of Canterbury who are doing this. David Miller Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Is it just possible that we may be going out on a note of agreement, Judy? 'One Creator'! Amen! 'believe what is written as is' Amen once again as I most certainly do. (flee) darkness and/or presumption! That makes for three Amen's, Judy. Now what can we do to convince David Miller and Kevin about that which we (you and I) believe? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 07:26 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism But only One Creator and only one kind who believe what is written as is. Take your pick. I see no point in running after more darkness and/or presumption. On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 07:02:56 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. From: Judy Taylor Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose. John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests God is somehow in control as the Creator(?) If this could be presented into the secular system of education without it being coopted by the fundies -- go for it. But I doubt that it can. What a shame that radical
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place "creationism" into the school programs for the reason stated below. Amen. And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while, at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side. Scary. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose. John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests God is somehow in control as the Creator(?) If this could be presented into the secular system of education without it being coopted by the fundies -- go for it. But I doubt that it can. What a shame that radical fundamentalism within Christiandom forces the Body to dismiss a perfectly wonderful opportunity to introduce the Creator to others. In case you did not notice,the fundamentalists are notcausing the acknowledgement of our Creator to be forbidden inschools. It is the liberal loonies like thisArchbishop of Canterbury who are doing this. David Miller Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
'helter skelter' h? Perhaps appropriate. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 10:06 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place "creationism" into the school programs for the reason stated below. Amen. And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while, at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side. Scary. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose. John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests God is somehow in control as the Creator(?) If this could be presented into the secular system of education without it bein
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Lance wrote: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your point? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose. John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests God is somehow in control as the Creator(?) If this could be presented into the secular system of education without it being coopted by the fundies -- go for it. But I doubt that it can. What a shame that radical fundamentalism within Christiandom forces the Body to dismiss a perfectly wonderful opportunity to introduce the Creator to others. In case you did not notice,the fundamentalists are notcausing the acknowledgement of our Creator to be forbidden inschools. It is the liberal loonies like thisArchbishop of Canterbury who are doing this.
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Homer Simpson, while attempting to steal a candy bar from a vending machine, got his arm stuck. He dragged that one over to another for a second attempt thus getting both arms securely locked in. Somehow, with his nose, he managed to dial 911 for assistance. The operator asked Homer 'Are each of your hands wrapped around candy bars?' Homer replied, 'your point being?' David: You sound a little like Homer in your reply. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 10:59 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Lance wrote: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your point? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose. John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests God is somehow in control as the
RE: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
And they are just as fishy. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:00 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Lance wrote: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your point? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with harmonizing evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose. John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests God is somehow in control as the Creator(?) If this could be presented into the secular system of education without it being coopted by the fundies -- go for it. But I doubt that it can. What a shame that radical fundamentalism within Christiandom forces the Body to dismiss a perfectly wonderful opportunity to introduce the Creator to others. In case you did not notice,the fundamentalists are notcausing the acknowledgement of our Creator to be forbidden inschools. It is the liberal loonies like thisArchbishop of Canterbury who are doing this. David Miller Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
I enjoyed, and shared, both of your posts earlier today. I probably shan't be sharing this one. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 13:40 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] on Creationism And they are just as fishy. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David MillerSent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:00 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Lance wrote: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your point? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John
RE: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Darn. J From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:46 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism I enjoyed, and shared, both of your posts earlier today. I probably shan't be sharing this one. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 13:40 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] on Creationism And they are just as fishy. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:00 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Lance wrote: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your point? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with harmonizing evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose. John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests God is somehow in control as the Creator(?) If this could be presented into the secular system of education without it being coopted by the fundies -- go for it. But I doubt that it can. What a shame that radical fundamentalism within Christiandom forces the Body to dismiss a perfectly wonderful opportunity to introduce the Creator to others. In case you did not notice,the fundamentalists are notcausing the acknowledgement of our Creator to be forbidden inschools. It is the liberal loonies like thisArchbishop of Canterbury who are doing this. David Miller Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
You remind me, Lance, of another show... Back to the Future, where Biff is hitting Marty McFly on the head, "Hello, Hello, Anybody Home? Think, McFly, Think." To further elucidate my point:having numerous creationist models of origins is not a reason to exclude them from our educational system. There are numerous models of evolution as well. The premise by which you think you can rest your case is ratherelusive. David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Homer Simpson, while attempting to steal a candy bar from a vending machine, got his arm stuck. He dragged that one over to another for a second attempt thus getting both arms securely locked in. Somehow, with his nose, he managed to dial 911 for assistance. The operator asked Homer 'Are each of your hands wrapped around candy bars?' Homer replied, 'your point being?' David: You sound a little like Homer in your reply. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 10:59 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Lance wrote: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your point? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church.
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Homer was speaking with a rather buxom country singer. Said she to Homer, 'Homer, my eyes are up here.' Homer replied, 'I've made my choice.' You've made your choice about many things, David. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 14:06 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism You remind me, Lance, of another show... Back to the Future, where Biff is hitting Marty McFly on the head, "Hello, Hello, Anybody Home? Think, McFly, Think." To further elucidate my point:having numerous creationist models of origins is not a reason to exclude them from our educational system. There are numerous models of evolution as well. The premise by which you think you can rest your case is ratherelusive. David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Homer Simpson, while attempting to steal a candy bar from a vending machine, got his arm stuck. He dragged that one over to another for a second attempt thus getting both arms securely locked in. Somehow, with his nose, he managed to dial 911 for assistance. The operator asked Homer 'Are each of your hands wrapped around candy bars?' Homer replied, 'your point being?' David: You sound a little like Homer in your reply. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 10:59 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Lance wrote: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your point? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
I really do not understand how it is that you think Fundies have destroyed any opportunity for creationism in schools. The problem is that the scientific establishment has taken the position that any mention of a Creator departs from science. Lance's position of theistic evolution is flatly rejected by science. So the Fundies are not hindering creationism in schools. Scientists are. Are you really blind to this fact? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place "creationism" into the school programs for the reason stated below. Amen. And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while, at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side. Scary. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere be
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
David says that 'the scientific establishment has...'. Look, David, if the generalization works for you then, OK! I already told you that I'd supply the names of real, as opposed to pretend, scientists, who are themselves believers (I supplied a couple of names) who hold to a variety of positions on this matter. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 14:20 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism I really do not understand how it is that you think Fundies have destroyed any opportunity for creationism in schools. The problem is that the scientific establishment has taken the position that any mention of a Creator departs from science. Lance's position of theistic evolution is flatly rejected by science. So the Fundies are not hindering creationism in schools. Scientists are. Are you really blind to this fact? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place "creationism" into the school programs for the reason stated below. Amen. And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while, at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side. Scary. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church.
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
And who is going to present these competing versions of creation -- the average Joe school teacher ?? Do you have any idea what an antagonist educator would do with such information? Actually, this "creationism in the school" thingy is really starting to sound like a bad idea !! jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You remind me, Lance, of another show... Back to the Future, where Biff is hitting Marty McFly on the head, "Hello, Hello, Anybody Home? Think, McFly, Think." To further elucidate my point:having numerous creationist models of origins is not a reason to exclude them from our educational system. There are numerous models of evolution as well. The premise by which you think you can rest your case is ratherelusive. David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Homer Simpson, while attempting to steal a candy bar from a vending machine, got his arm stuck. He dragged that one over to another for a second attempt thus getting both arms securely locked in. Somehow, with his nose, he managed to dial 911 for assistance. The operator asked Homer 'Are each of your hands wrapped around candy bars?' Homer replied, 'your point being?' David: You sound a little like Homer in your reply. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 10:59 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Lance wrote: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your point? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose. John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests God is somehow in control as the Creator(?) If this could be presented into the secular system of education without it being coopted by the fundies -- go for it. But I doubt that it can. What a shame that radical fundamentalism within Christiandom forces the Body to dismiss a perfectly wonderful opportunity to introduce the Creator to others. In case you did not notice,the fundamentalists are notcausing the acknowledgement of our Creator to be forbidden i
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Daivd, I have several books on my shelves written by Christian scientists proclaiming some version of theistic evolution. Secondly,you and are both members of the fundamentalist community. If you have missed the M.O. of any number of our brethren, I haven't. Look at Pat Robertson. A Dufus of major proportions. He has his foot in his mouth so often they now measure that cavity in terms of shoe size !! The cause of Christ would becomeeven more difficult if we allowed this to happen. At least the way it is now, we (the Christian community) can somewhat hide these guys from society. The KKK was made up of mostly Christian claiming people. Can you imagine? "OK, students,we have just completedour study on evolution from a scientific point of view. Now , we enter into the Christian notion of creation -- or should I say the several versions of same !! (and the teacher smiles.) We only had space in the text book for five such theories. I personally do not believe any of them -- and I need to make that clear to you before "they" pass some law that says I cannot influence your thinking with such a statement -- but I will do the best I can.Before I begin, how many of you care about any of this... show of hands, please . I said "show of " . oh, I get get it. Well , we have to consider each of these accounts of creation, anyway, and there will be a test. I must say, it seems a bit odd for me. I mean, I wil l be making a presentation of a biblical nature, but , of course, we are not permitted to present from the Bible -- so I really do not know why this is not being done in church .. but here goes ..." jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I really do not understand how it is that you think Fundies have destroyed any opportunity for creationism in schools. The problem is that the scientific establishment has taken the position that any mention of a Creator departs from science. Lance's position of theistic evolution is flatly rejected by science. So the Fundies are not hindering creationism in schools. Scientists are. Are you really blind to this fact? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place "creationism" into the school programs for the reason stated below. Amen. And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while, at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side. Scary. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAI
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
You funny guy, you! Point well made, Homer.. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 16:20 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Daivd, I have several books on my shelves written by Christian scientists proclaiming some version of theistic evolution. Secondly,you and are both members of the fundamentalist community. If you have missed the M.O. of any number of our brethren, I haven't. Look at Pat Robertson. A Dufus of major proportions. He has his foot in his mouth so often they now measure that cavity in terms of shoe size !! The cause of Christ would becomeeven more difficult if we allowed this to happen. At least the way it is now, we (the Christian community) can somewhat hide these guys from society. The KKK was made up of mostly Christian claiming people. Can you imagine? "OK, students,we have just completedour study on evolution from a scientific point of view. Now , we enter into the Christian notion of creation -- or should I say the several versions of same !! (and the teacher smiles.) We only had space in the text book for five such theories. I personally do not believe any of them -- and I need to make that clear to you before "they" pass some law that says I cannot influence your thinking with such a statement -- but I will do the best I can.Before I begin, how many of you care about any of this... show of hands, please . I said "show of " . oh, I get get it. Well , we have to consider each of these accounts of creation, anyway, and there will be a test. I must say, it seems a bit odd for me. I mean, I wil l be making a presentation of a biblical nature, but , of course, we are not permitted to present from the Bible -- so I really do not know why this is not being done in church .. but here goes ..." jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I really do not understand how it is that you think Fundies have destroyed any opportunity for creationism in schools. The problem is that the scientific establishment has taken the position that any mention of a Creator departs from science. Lance's position of theistic evolution is flatly rejected by science. So the Fundies are not hindering creationism in schools. Scientists are. Are you really blind to this fact? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place "creationism" into the school programs for the reason stated below. Amen. And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while, at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side. Scary. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Supply all the names of real scientists that you like, Lance. It does not change the facts about the position of the scientific establishment. I'm talking about organizations like theNational Academy of Sciences. They make a big legal case concerning howcreation science is religion and therefore it is ILLEGAL to teach it in public schools. Any mention of a Creator makes it RELIGION instead of SCIENCE. Their position is that science and religion occupytwo separate realms of human experience. They accept the fact thatmany scientists are deeply religious, but they insist that the two cannot be combined. Therefore,any mention of a Creator in science is forbidden. I reject the notion that science and religion do not overlap. By the way, the NAS also makes bigmention of how most religious groups have concluded that evolution is not at odds with their descriptions of creation and human origins. In other words,the scientific establishmentloves guys like R. Williams who help them keep the acknowledgement of God out of the classroom. David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism David says that 'the scientific establishment has...'. Look, David, if the generalization works for you then, OK! I already told you that I'd supply the names of real, as opposed to pretend, scientists, who are themselves believers (I supplied a couple of names) who hold to a variety of positions on this matter. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 14:20 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism I really do not understand how it is that you think Fundies have destroyed any opportunity for creationism in schools. The problem is that the scientific establishment has taken the position that any mention of a Creator departs from science. Lance's position of theistic evolution is flatly rejected by science. So the Fundies are not hindering creationism in schools. Scientists are. Are you really blind to this fact? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place "creationism" into the school programs for the reason stated below. Amen. And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while, at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side. Scary. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Let the teacher decide what is relevant. They don't teach all the
competing ideas of evolution either, so what is the problem? The problem
of censorship should concern you because the truth is not afraid of
evidence. You should be concerned whenever one side uses legal maneuvers
and rhetoric to prevent the other side from being heard.
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:50
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
And who is going to present these competing versions of creation
-- the average Joe school teacher ?? Do you have any
idea what an antagonist educator would do with such
information? Actually, this "creationism in the school"
thingy is really starting to sound like a bad idea !!
jd
--
Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You remind me, Lance, of another show... Back to the Future, where Biff
is hitting Marty McFly on the head, "Hello, Hello, Anybody Home?
Think, McFly, Think."
To further elucidate my point:having numerous creationist
models of origins is not a reason to exclude them from our educational
system. There are numerous models of evolution as well. The
premise by which you think you can rest your case is
ratherelusive.
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
Lance
Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 1:09
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Homer Simpson, while attempting to steal a
candy bar from a vending machine, got his arm stuck. He dragged that one
over to another for a second attempt thus getting both arms securely
locked in. Somehow, with his nose, he managed to dial 911 for assistance.
The operator asked Homer 'Are each of your hands wrapped around candy
bars?' Homer replied, 'your point being?'
David: You sound a little like Homer in your
reply.
- Original Message -
From:
David
Miller
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 23, 2006 10:59
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
Lance
wrote:
There are as many
'species' of creationists as fish.
The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your
point?
David Miller
- Original Message -
From:
Lance Muir
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006
7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on
Creationism
There are as many 'species' of
creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of
computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come
up with. I rest my case your honor.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy Taylor
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: March 23, 2006
06:44
Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw:
Williams on Creationism
Why advocate teaching what you don't know
JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove
evolution do we need to concern ourselves
with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence
that
this level of proof has not been achieved
includes the long list of scientists and others who have
abandoned
Darwinism because they became convinced
that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So
why
would you want to warp young minds with
useless information that is not proven? judyt
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school
systemsand you are talking about religious
people!!! Amazing
Maybe we should install a different creationist version for
every major school system
I am sure we can find enough
fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to
worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest
idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy.
CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL
MAKE YOU FREE !! jd
From:
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
I know many scientists who are Christians and hold to theistic evolution. That does not mean that they bring that view in when they practice science. They are not allowed and they will be the first to tell you. I don't see myself as a fundamentalist, but I'm not going to fight with those who characterize me as such. I like Pat Robertson. He is not a dufus from my perspective. I do not favor the idea of forcing the teaching of creation in schools. I am against the notion of forbidding teachers from dealing with this subject matter. I'm against theidea of it being illegal to teach creationscience in schools.I have known many high school teachers that would not have the problem that you outline below. David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Daivd, I have several books on my shelves written by Christian scientists proclaiming some version of theistic evolution. Secondly,you and are both members of the fundamentalist community. If you have missed the M.O. of any number of our brethren, I haven't. Look at Pat Robertson. A Dufus of major proportions. He has his foot in his mouth so often they now measure that cavity in terms of shoe size !! The cause of Christ would becomeeven more difficult if we allowed this to happen. At least the way it is now, we (the Christian community) can somewhat hide these guys from society. The KKK was made up of mostly Christian claiming people. Can you imagine? "OK, students,we have just completedour study on evolution from a scientific point of view. Now , we enter into the Christian notion of creation -- or should I say the several versions of same !! (and the teacher smiles.) We only had space in the text book for five such theories. I personally do not believe any of them -- and I need to make that clear to you before "they" pass some law that says I cannot influence your thinking with such a statement -- but I will do the best I can.Before I begin, how many of you care about any of this... show of hands, please . I said "show of " . oh, I get get it. Well , we have to consider each of these accounts of creation, anyway, and there will be a test. I must say, it seems a bit odd for me. I mean, I wil l be making a presentation of a biblical nature, but , of course, we are not permitted to present from the Bible -- so I really do not know why this is not being done in church .. but here goes ..." jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I really do not understand how it is that you think Fundies have destroyed any opportunity for creationism in schools. The problem is that the scientific establishment has taken the position that any mention of a Creator departs from science. Lance's position of theistic evolution is flatly rejected by science. So the Fundies are not hindering creationism in schools. Scientists are. Are you really blind to this fact? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place "creationism" into the school programs for the reason stated below. Amen. And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while, at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side. Scary. jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
Back to the drawing board, he did not THINK of that.David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lance wrote: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish.The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your point? David Miller- Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on CreationismThere are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor.- Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on CreationismWhy advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! AmazingMaybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jdFrom: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true.On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judytOn Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would rejectany mention of God in the evolutionary process,IMO. But creationism in the schools? Couldthat not be considered the beginnings of a fanaticalfundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose.John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests Godis somehow in control as the Creator(?) If thiscould be presented into the secular system of education without it being coopted by the fundies-- go for it. But I doubt that it can. What a shamethat radical fundamentalism within Christiandom forcesthe Body to dismiss a perfectly wonderful opportunityto introduce the Creator to others. In case you did not notice,the fundamentalists are notcausing the acknowledgement of our Creator to be forbidden inschools. It is the liberal loonies like thisArchbishop of Canterbury who are doing this.David MillerYahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
You two guy's version of "checkmate" is really humorous. -- Original message -- From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Back to the drawing board, he did not THINK of that.David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lance wrote: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your point? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose. John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests God is somehow in control as the Creator(?) If this could be presented into the secular system of education without it being coopted by the fundies -- go for it. But I doubt that it can. What a shame that radical fundamentalism within Christiandom forces the Body to dismiss a perfectly wonderful opportunity to introduce the Creator to others. In case you did not notice,the fundamentalists are notcausing the acknowledgement of our Creator to be forbidden inschools. It is the liberal loonies like thisArchbishop of Canterbury who are doing this. David Miller Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
-- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] You two guy's version of "checkmate" is really humorous. -- Original message -- From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Back to the drawing board, he did not THINK of that.David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lance wrote: There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. The same can be said for evolutionists. So what is your point? David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted "Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with "harmonizing" evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything and this is no measure by which to gauge what is needful or true. On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:20:02 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you even know what this thread is about, Judy? WHICH VIEW OF CREATIONISM GETS INTO THE CIRRICULUM -- HUH ??? From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] So? There isn't a single view of the whole church that is agreed upon by the whole church either. What does that prove? judyt On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:27:56 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps the Bishop has the same concerns I do. I know this -- there isn't a single view of creationism that is agreed upon by the whole church. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: The world in which we live would reject any mention of God in the evolutionary process, IMO. But creationism in the schools? Could that not be considered the beginnings of a fanatical fundamentalist take-over of the culture? ROTFLOL. I sure hope youwere being facetious on purpose. John wrote: But to allow a mere statement that suggests God is somehow in control as the Creator(?) If this could be presented into the secular system of education without it being coopted by the fundies -- go for it. But I doubt that it can. What a shame that radical fundamentalism within Christiandom forces the Body to dismiss a perfectly wonderful opportunity to introduce the Creator to others. In case you did not notice,the fundamentalists are notcausing the acknowledgement of our Creator to be forbidden inschools. It is the liberal loonies like thisArchbishop of Canterbury who are doing this. David Miller Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
It is also absurd that someone who claims to believe that all truth comes from God would not consider that all true science does the same. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:46 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Supply all the names of real scientists that you like, Lance. It does not change the facts about the position of the scientific establishment. I'm talking about organizations like theNational Academy of Sciences. They make a big legal case concerning howcreation science is religion and therefore it is ILLEGAL to teach it in public schools. Any mention of a Creator makes it RELIGION instead of SCIENCE. Their position is that science and religion occupytwo separate realms of human experience. They accept the fact thatmany scientists are deeply religious, but they insist that the two cannot be combined. Therefore,any mention of a Creator in science is forbidden. I reject the notion that science and religion do not overlap. By the way, the NAS also makes bigmention of how most religious groups have concluded that evolution is not at odds with their descriptions of creation and human origins. In other words,the scientific establishmentloves guys like R. Williams who help them keep the acknowledgement of God out of the classroom. David Miller - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism David says that 'the scientific establishment has...'. Look, David, if the generalization works for you then, OK! I already told you that I'd supply the names of real, as opposed to pretend, scientists, who are themselves believers (I supplied a couple of names) who hold to a variety of positions on this matter. - Original Message - From: David Miller To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 14:20 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism I really do not understand how it is that you think Fundies have destroyed any opportunity for creationism in schools. The problem is that the scientific establishment has taken the position that any mention of a Creator departs from science. Lance's position of theistic evolution is flatly rejected by science. So the Fundies are not hindering creationism in schools. Scientists are. Are you really blind to this fact? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place creationism into the school programs for the reason stated below. Amen. And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while, at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side. Scary. jd -- Original message -- From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted Only when we prove evolution do we need to concern ourselves with harmonizing evolutionism with theism. Evidence that this level of proof has not been achieved includes the long list of scientists and others who have abandoned Darwinism because they became convinced that the scientific evidence DOES NOT support it. So why would you want to warp young minds with useless information that is not proven? judyt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about fundy creationist versions in the school systemsand you are talking about religious people!!! Amazing Maybe we should install a different creationist version for every major school system I am sure we can find enough fundy ideas to go around. That way , you would have to worryabout consensus and no one will have the slightest idea what to believe. but you and Kev will be happy. CONSENSUS BE DAMNED. KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL MAKE YOU FREE !! jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] I surmised as much JD; my point being that religious ppl have many and varied points of view about anything and everything
RE: [TruthTalk] on Creationism
I was once interviewed on Pat Robertsons TV program, and have a lot of respect for him. But I do wonder why he says something that is absolutely true and then apologizes for it later. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 3:55 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism I know many scientists who are Christians and hold to theistic evolution. That does not mean that they bring that view in when they practice science. They are not allowed and they will be the first to tell you. I don't see myself as a fundamentalist, but I'm not going to fight with those who characterize me as such. I like Pat Robertson. He is not a dufus from my perspective. I do not favor the idea of forcing the teaching of creation in schools. I am against the notion of forbidding teachers from dealing with this subject matter. I'm against theidea of it being illegal to teach creationscience in schools.I have known many high school teachers that would not have the problem that you outline below. David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism Daivd, I have several books on my shelves written by Christian scientists proclaiming some version of theistic evolution. Secondly,you and are both members of the fundamentalist community. If you have missed the M.O. of any number of our brethren, I haven't. Look at Pat Robertson. A Dufus of major proportions. He has his foot in his mouth so often they now measure that cavity in terms of shoe size !! The cause of Christ would becomeeven more difficult if we allowed this to happen. At least the way it is now, we (the Christian community) can somewhat hide these guys from society. The KKK was made up of mostly Christian claiming people. Can you imagine? OK, students,we have just completedour study on evolution from a scientific point of view. Now , we enter into the Christian notion of creation -- or should I say the several versions of same !! (and the teacher smiles.) We only had space in the text book for five such theories. I personally do not believe any of them -- and I need to make that clear to you before they pass some law that says I cannot influence your thinking with such a statement -- but I will do the best I can.Before I begin, how many of you care about any of this... show of hands, please . I said show of . oh, I get get it. Well , we have to consider each of these accounts of creation, anyway, and there will be a test. I must say, it seems a bit odd for me. I mean, I wil l be making a presentation of a biblical nature, but , of course, we are not permitted to present from the Bible -- so I really do not know why this is not being done in church .. but here goes ... jd -- Original message -- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] I really do not understand how it is that you think Fundies have destroyed any opportunity for creationism in schools. The problem is that the scientific establishment has taken the position that any mention of a Creator departs from science. Lance's position of theistic evolution is flatly rejected by science. So the Fundies are not hindering creationism in schools. Scientists are. Are you really blind to this fact? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] on Creationism With much debate, the Fundies destroy any opportunity to place creationism into the school programs for the reason stated below. Amen. And, again, a foot in the door would only allow the warring hordes (Rad Fundies) to swarm our educational institutions and run helter skelter -- yelling and screaming at each other while, at the very same time, claiming victory for the Right Side. Scary. jd -- Original message -- From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are as many 'species' of creationists as fish. Put a million of 'em at the keyboards of computers and they'd come up with.well...what they've already come up with. I rest my case your honor. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 23, 2006 06:44 Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: Williams on Creationism Why advocate teaching what you don't know JD? As has already been noted Only when we prove evolution do we
