> On Jan 28, 2019, at 1:51 AM, James Tauber via Unicode
> wrote:
>
> when I'm entering U+2019 in a Greek context (via option-n) the keyboard is
> fully aware I'm in that Greek context.
Could you explain what you mean by the keyboard being “aware” of the Greek
context?
> On Jan 27, 2019, at 12:09 PM, James Tauber via Unicode
> wrote:
>
> γένοιτ’ ἄν
>
> Double-clicking on the first word should select the U+2019 as well.
> Interestingly on macOS Mojave it does in Pages[1] but not in Notes
On my ipad/iphone, Word does it correctly but Pages and Notes do
> On Jan 26, 2019, at 11:08 PM, Richard Wordingham via Unicode
> wrote:
>
> It may be a matter of literacy in Hawaiian. If the test readership
> doesn't use ʼokina,
I think the Unicode Hawaiian ʻokina is supposed to be U+02BB (instead of
U+02BC).
> On Jun 8, 2018, at 9:52 AM, Marcel Schneider via Unicode
> wrote:
>
> People relevant to projects for French locale do trace the borderline of
> applicability wider
> than do those people who are closerly tied to Unicode‐related projects.
Could you give a concrete example or two of what
> On Jun 7, 2018, at 11:32 PM, Marcel Schneider via Unicode
> wrote:
>
> What bothered me ... is that the registration of the French locale in CLDR is
> still surprisingly incomplete
Could you provide an example or two?
> On Mar 9, 2018, at 5:52 AM, Philippe Verdy via Unicode
> wrote:
>
> So the "best-known Swiss tongue" is still not so much known, and still
> incorrectly referenced (frequently confused with "Swiss German", which is
> much like standard High German
I think Swiss German
> On Jan 31, 2018, at 10:25 AM, John H. Jenkins via Unicode
> wrote:
>
> I'm not aware of any publically available fonts for Extension F but would
> gladly install one myself if it's available.
>
There may be something here:
> On Jan 30, 2018, at 3:20 AM, Alastair Houghton
> wrote:
>
> The “alt” annotation isn’t on the latest keyboards (go look in an Apple
> Store if you don’t believe me :-)).
Interesting! Apple’s documentation shows these keys mostly with “alt” and “⌥”.
> On Jan 29, 2018, at 4:26 AM, Marcel Schneider via Unicode
> wrote:
>
>
> the Windows US-Intl
> does not allow to write French in a usable manner, as the Œœ is still
> missing, and does not allow to type German correctly neither due to
> the lack of single angle
> On Mar 2, 2017, at 8:20 AM, Mark Davis ☕️ wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 10:06 AM, Norbert Lindenberg
> >
> wrote:
> http://norbertlindenberg.com/2015/06/installing-fonts-on-ios/index.html
>
> On Mar 20, 2016, at 12:24 PM, Asmus Freytag (t)
> wrote:
>
> Usually, the archive feature pertains only to the fact that you can reproduce
> the final form, not to being able to get at the correct source (plain text
> backbone) for the document.
My understanding
On Aug 18, 2015, at 11:11 AM, Doug Ewell wrote:
It is NOT necessary for a combining sequence to be assigned a name,
either by the Unicode Technical Committee or by anyone else, in order to
use it. Note that of the two sequences:
A̱ 0041, 0331
A̲ 0041, 0332
neither sequence is listed
It looks like glyphs 132-194 are all mislabeled as halfwidth katakana-hiragana.
On Aug 11, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Andre Schappo wrote:
The bug is consistent. All the below fonts are by Changzhou SinoType
Technology and U+FF70 is at font glyph 147
André Schappo
On 11 Aug 2015, at 08:35,
The IBM page seems to have an ellipsis character in UTF-8, with bytes E2 80 A6.
The web server is set to force all browsers to use the encoding iso-8859-1
regardless of what charset is stipulated in the html code. The browser uses
the Win 1252 equivalents and displays …
To see what a web
On 23 mars 2015, at 08:35, William_J_G Overington wrote:
Origin of the digital encoding of accented characters for Esperanto
These may well be in Unicode as legacy encoded characters from one or more
earlier standards.
ISO 6937 of 1983 seems to have been designed to support them.
On Oct 23, 2014, at 11:31 AM, Eric Muller wrote:
How about even having just the glyphs in the Unicode.org charts being in the
public domain?
Very easy to achieve:
1. Ask the owner of the font how much money he wants to part with his
property.
2. Write a check for the corresponding
On Oct 24, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Peter Constable wrote:
From: Unicode [mailto:unicode-boun...@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Tom Gewecke
If someone wants to publish and sell a book in which they say something like
This is how Unicode suggests that character U+ is supposed to look:
Well
On Oct 23, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Peter Constable wrote:
I think Debbie's position is entirely reasonable. Sure, having useful fonts
in the public domain soon after standardization would be great. But
publishing fonts created for the purpose of chart production may lead to all
kinds of
On May 19, 2014, at 8:40 AM, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
If I have a cuneiform
text, where can I find glyph images to identify them?
You might want to specify what you mean by text. A photo of an inscription?
Something from a printed book?
Because of the considerable variation in glyphs over
On May 19, 2014, at 9:21 AM, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
I'm interested in representing one of the so-called Hurrian songs
(tablet H.6, containing musical notation) with Unicode, cf.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrian_songs
That says it represents qáb, which seems to be a version of Labat
On Mar 17, 2014, at 11:01 PM, Naena Guru wrote:Type this inside the yellow text box in the following page:kaaryyaalavala yanþra pañkþihttp://www.lovatasinhala.com/puvaruva.php
Please tell me what sequence of Unicode Sinhala codes would produce what the text box shows.Using the Sinhala Qwerty
On Mar 18, 2014, at 12:10 PM, Jean-François Colson wrote:
Using the Sinhala Qwerty layout in Mac OS X with the Apple
Sinhala fonts, I typed
karYYalvl ynhR p;kni
Shouldn’t it be p;khi?
Yes, sorry.karYYalvl ynhR
On Mar 18, 2014, at 1:48 PM, Marc Durdin wrote:
Can anyone who is more knowledgeable in Unicode Sinhala tell me which is the
correct rendering? See graphic below.
image002.png
The OS X version is the most correct according my limited knowledge of the
script. I think the Apple font
On Mar 18, 2014, at 2:28 PM, Jean-François Colson wrote:The sequence of code points would thus be:0D9A 0DCF 0DBB 0DCA 200D 0DBA 0DCA 200D 0DBA 0DCF 0DBD 0DC0 0DBD 00200DBA 0DB1 0DC4 0DCA 200D 0DBB 0020 0DB4 0DA9 0D9A 0DC4 0DD2Naena, is this what you were looking for?It seems there’s still a big
PS A good source for info on the Sinhala codes, etc is
https://www.microsoft.com/typography/OpenTypeDev/sinhala/intro.htm___
Unicode mailing list
Unicode@unicode.org
http://unicode.org/mailman/listinfo/unicode
On Mar 18, 2014, at 12:52 PM, Andrew Cunningham wrote:
I suspect it was a fishing expedition to illustrate how awkward it is to type
on Unicode keyboard layouts versus his system.
Interesting question perhaps. Is it more awkward to type 14 strokes as k a a r
y y a a l a v a l a or to
On Feb 16, 2014, at 4:50 PM, Richard Wordingham wrote:
One issue here that I don't know the solution for is how the right
glyphs should be chosen for displaying plain text communication. I
don't know any general mechanism for, say, specifying that by
default Cyrillic text should use
On Feb 16, 2014, at 4:33 AM, Крушевљанин wrote:
What is interesting, I know next to nothing about Apple. (Probably because
Macintosh computers are expensive as hell.) I have read something about AAT
technology, but what about their fonts? Are there Serbian/Macedonian glyphs?
I had a
Recently when troubleshooting an email problem for a Mac user, I came across an
email with Content-Type charset=unicode. I had not seen this before. OS X
Mail was reading it as Chinese text instead of Latin.
I did find something like this on the IANA list and understand there is an RFC
from
On Jul 13, 2013, at 7:40 AM, Richard Wordingham wrote:
I
wonder how many people here can read and understand the number ⌋⌋?
No problem with that on a Mac. In general I think OS X always displays a
character if there is any font installed which has it (except for the PUA).
On Apr 21, 2013, at 11:01 AM, Christopher Fynn wrote:
In India you could have telegrams
containing such sentences delivered in any of the major Indian
regional languages.
There is apparently a version of this still in use, seen in the List of
Standard Phrases for Greeting Telegrams at the
On Apr 19, 2013, at 12:22 PM, Whistler, Ken wrote:
As regards any possible case for encoding localizable sentences *as
characters*,
in my opinion, the train long ago left the station for that one.
Indeed, people have been devising systems for representing words and sentences
via ordinary
On Feb 11, 2013, at 7:21 AM, William_J_G Overington wrote:
Could some people who know about Navajo say more about Navajo please?
http://m10lmac.blogspot.com/2007/01/typing-navajo.html
On Aug 13, 2012, at 7:37 AM, Karl Pentzlin wrote:
Why is U+25CA ◊ LOZENGE in the Mac OS Roman character set (at 0xD7 = 215,
and therefore contained in several common fonts like Arial or Times
New Roman)?
Do you have non-unicode fonts where it is located at 0xD7, instead of the ×
On May 29, 2012, at 5:30 AM, Asmus Freytag wrote:
Some of the features in those keyboard standards seem of sufficient
complexity that I can't imagine anyone other than specially trained typists
to ever be using them.
Indeed, I suspect the future may lie elsewhere than in creating more
On May 29, 2012, at 11:03 AM, Christopher Fynn wrote:
putting the Rupee
symbol on a 102 key type International keyboard would be of little
benefit to the public there, unless hardware suppliers in India can be
persuaded to supply the 102 key type of keyboard as standard.
It really shouldn't
On May 28, 2012, at 6:30 AM, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
Optimistically speaking, it will probably take ten years before the Indian
rupee sign will generally, worldwide, be present in fonts, properly handled
in software, and conveniently assigned to a key combination.
For what it's worth,
On Mar 19, 2012, at 8:24 AM, Christopher Fynn wrote:
Has anyone done a survey of which mobile devices support Unicode and
complex script rendering?
As far as the iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch are concerned, my understanding is they
support display of Unicode Devanagari, Gujarati, Gurmukhi, Tamil,
On Jul 25, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Philippe Verdy wrote:
It seems that the script is supported only on MacOS, where there are
effectively commercial Buginese fonts designed for Mac (example one
font from Xerox : I've not tested it, I would need a Mac before even
buying that font).
That is
Christi wrote:
I for sure was confused some time ago, because the true .otf font files
have the same icon.
Another dimension of confusion is that .otf doesn't necessarily say
anything about what, if any, sort of opentype layout capabilities might be
present in a font. It just means it uses
Regarding the use of higher level protocols to deal with the complex
issues of vertical layout, the CSS 3 text module may be of interest:
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/
I believe CSS 2 includes writing-mode top-to-bottom right-to-left, but last
I checked only Win IE 6 could do it.
On Mar 5, 2004, at 2:29 PM, Peter Constable wrote:
One other option is to ask what languages / locales are supported, and
that is how MS has been documenting things up to now. It's a slightly
different question, but it's one that is answerable.
I think this is indeed what makes the most sense.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It took Devanagiri to show me the NATURE of the technical problem posed
by a dynamic encoding for cuneiform; it took Mongolian to show me that
the problem HAS ALREADY BEEN SOLVED in Unicode.
No greater hames have we ever made than encoding Mongolian without a
proper
[EMAIL PROTECTED] asked:
How long does it take to create a Mongolian font, compared to, let's say,
a Hebrew one?
Very, very, very long. As far as I know, no Mongolian Unicode font yet
exists that contains more than the basic glyphs without any support for
ligatures or positional or variant
MS Mac Office 2004 was announced at MacWorld SF today. Does anyone know
whether this update finally brings the Unicode capabilities of the WinXP
version to the Mac OS X world?
In helping someone work on a font for Byzantine musical symbols (1D000
-1D0FF) we noticed that there was no encoding of either precomposed or
combining symbols, despite the fact that many or most of them do not occur
in isolation. As a result, using these symbols in plain text is not very
To form the combinations without using PUA code-points I think you would need
to use some kind of smart font format system like OpenType, Graphite or AAT.
This is exactly how e.g. Indic scripts work - there is no need of characters
or code-points for the combining glyph forms of letters or for
Can anyone tell me whether ideographic description characters are ever
actually used? I recently ran into a Han (Vietnamese Nm) character
which does not seem to be encoded yet, slice radical on left and
heart radical on right, and was wondering whether it would make
practical sense to encode
Mind you, I'm not sure where, although OpenOffice is getting there.
Does that run on OS X? I thought it only ran in the X11 shell.
I think they have set Q1 2006 as a target for the OS X version.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't know about Chinese, but it appears that one is limited to
WorldScript. Word hasn't been updated for Mac OS since 2001.
I would enjoy hearing otherwise, but as far as I know, the only MS products
for the Mac which are not like this (and can actually do Unicode
Nick Nicholas opoudjis at optushome dot com dot au wrote:
If software can't cope with the PUA, that *is* defeating the purpose
of the PUA (two people can and should be allowed to exchange data in
it by agreement, they just shouldn't expect everyone else to
subscribe to that agreement).
The
About the c-cedilla, it appears that OS X Safari does not pick up the
charset on this page. If the default is set to UTF-8, the c disappears
altogether. The correct character is displayed only if the browser is
set by default or manually to Latin 1.
PS The reason the Latin 1 charset is not picked up by a browser would
appear to be bad html. The page has
meta http-equiv=charset content=iso-8859-1
instead of
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Does anyone know where to find a list of standard key assignments for
Lao, matching the usual English keys with Lao Unicode codepoints?
Thanks for the help!
The second interest I have is in the development of word processing tools
that utilize the contents of unicode. I use a Macintosh with OSX
installed. The basic language packages are very good but they do not have
the Burmese script included.
See this site for an existing Burmese kit:
I am rather concerned about the Orwellian nightmare possibilities of this
and believe that vigilance is a necessary activity to protect freedom. Just
think, data about someone can be expressed with one character which can be
sent around the world to be stored in a database which is not necessarily
On Mon, Jun 02, 2003 at 01:34:36PM -0700, Magda Danish (Unicode) wrote:
Does anyone on the Unicode list have an answer to this question?
Please make sure to copy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
a sample page might help explain the issue
This part of the lynx manual would seem to indicate that UTF-16 is not
and clearly
not designed to be used on the web.
Their use in a page to display text clearly does not qualify, as it
requires proprietary fonts to display them.
I think that is overly restrictive. (And if the requirements for the
savvy logo are changed to rule out use of PUA, then I could
My question is more related to the requirements to display such a logo.
After
all, one could use this logo on a web site that uses a standardized
encoding
like ISO-8859-1
Why would you think that when the logo page says it must be UTF-8?
No, the page suggests UTF-8 or an encoding form
Tex Texin wrote:
Can someone tell me if the pages are also correct on Mac OS?
thanks
Yes, they are (OS X).
If this is true -- that U+FEFF is a kind of meta-character that doesn't
really belong to the text per se -- then it should be equally true for
UTF-8, whether its role is as a true Byte Order Mark (needed in UTF-16
and UTF-32 but not UTF-8) or as a signature (potentially useful in all
Unicode
The first looks like Courier New,
I have been able to confirm that it is indeed the font Courier New which is
being used by Mac OS X IE 5.2 to display the bytes 0xEF 0xBB 0xBF as the
Euro sign.
Has anyone worked to be positive that this is the cause of the errant
euro? With two simple UTF-8 encoded page (one with and one without the
BOM) ? I still have a hard time seeing how a BOM can cause a euro in
any way other than consulting fees.
Mac OS X IE 5.2 is the only browser that does this
Michael Everson recently pointed out that the Unicode home page seems to
begin with the character U+FEFF (ZWNBS/BOM), encoded as UTF-8. Presumably
this is an artifact created by the program used to make the page, although
I haven't noticed it on any others on the site.
I had a look at the BOM
As a matter of interest, what browsers actually support UTF-16?
For Mac OS X, all except Safari and Internet Explorer I think. At least
they have it on their encoding menus.
Stigma is not a common character. Can you see it in any applications?
Which fonts do you have that contain Greek characters?
On a standard OS X install, I think this character is only present in the
Japanese Hiragino Pro fonts. Also in Code2000, if you add this.
I don't know what fonts contain the characters. OSX's ATSUI is MEANT to
auto-choose a missing glyph from other fonts, as I said in my original
post.
I can see this character in 2 other Unicode apps. Just not in my ATSUI
attempt. Obviously I am not setting something up yet. But what do I
have to
The point that I was making was not to actually encode Unicode in Morse but
to make people think of Unicode in a different light. Morse code is a
different media and its purposes are different from most applications that
employ Unicode.
Mapping between Morse and Unicode is like translating
On 11/11/2002 04:58:46 PM Tex Texin wrote:
I don't have any more time today, but if I had recommendations for
(lists of) IMEs and Fonts that support planes other than the BMP...
I know MS has one font with plane 2 ideographs, and James Kass has his Code
2001 font with at least some
On the Macintosh, I have no clue.
On Mac OS X, the Character Palette or the add-on UnicodeChecker will give
the surrogates for any given codepoint.
For a web page that calculates both ways, see
http://www.trigeminal.com/16to32AndBack.asp
Apple's LastResort font uses a rounded box for all of its glyphs,
with letters and other things inside them. The Last Resort .notdef
glyph has a number of backslash diagonals filling the interior of the
rounded box. Quite effective.
If anyone would like to see exactly what this looks like, check
I think the .notdef glyph in the conext of the Last Resort font serves a
slightly different purpose, since it is not indicating only an absent glyph
but an undefined character code.
That's true, it makes no distinction. The context is a system that
normally searches all available fonts for a
Does anyone know where I can find an online version of the EIA-708
character set for DTV closed captioning? Or Unicode equivalences?
Thanks for the help!
At 11:26 -0700 2002-10-13, Tom Gewecke wrote:
The latest Mac OS X upgrade has fonts that include the classic
Mongolian/Manchu range, 1800-18AF
Where?
STFangsong, STHeiti, STKaiti, STSong
If you feel like typing the characters, I have a keyboard at
http://homepage.mac.com/thgewecke/fs/
The latest Mac OS X upgrade has fonts that include the classic
Mongolian/Manchu range, 1800-18AF.
Displaying these scripts correctly seems to be loaded with problems: They
should run top-to-bottom and left-to-right, with ligatures and positional
variants similar to Arabic.
I assume that
One wishes that Word for OS X, or AppleWorks for OS X, or InDesign
for OS X, allowed one to input text in Unicode. But one step at a
time, I guess. :-)
I've been playing around with the java-based ThinkFree Write (part of
ThinkFree Office, 30 day free trial, $50 purchase)
Any unassigned code point you choose will get the missing glyph
display for the font that happens to be selected for that character (on
many systems that's no longer easily predictable, due to font
substitutions). In short, there's no guarantee that *any* specific code
point will give you the
At 18:27 +0100 2002-07-30, Martin Kochanski wrote:
In writing a manual, I want to show examples of what a display looks
like when a font doesn't have a particular character.
What Unicode character would best represent the missing character symbol?
Apple's Last Resort font. :-)
Which I believe
Those desiring to compose strings of UTF-8 Phaistos for copy/pasting into
other applications may find it convenient to use the Phaistos screen
keyboard at
http://homepage.mac.com/thgewecke/phaistoskb.html
Of course the Everson font must be installed. On Mac OS X it seems only to
work with
Marco wrote:
For several scripts in modern usage, there are practically no workable
Unicode fonts in existence: Bengali, Gujarati, Gurmukhi, Kannada, Khmer,
Lao, Malayalam, Mongolian, Myanmar, Oriya, Sinhala, Telugu, Thaana, Tibetan.
Please contradict me, I'll be happy to be wrong!
I think Alan
I have created a keyboard layout generator for the Mac OS, it generates
'uchr' keyboard resources, which can be used in Mac OS 9 (with Unicode
script) or OS X.
This is an excellent piece of work. I have used it to create OS X Unicode
keyboards for Navajo, Hausa, and Esperanto so far, and the
I am not aware of any character assignments, official or PUA, gaining
widespread usage through this approach. AFAIK, one of the reasons for
creating the ConScript Unicode Registry was to give font designers a
semi-standard place to put, say, Tengwar glyphs; but if that practice
has caught on in
If you are concerned about the digital divide, then Unicode on the
web, and all that distributed processing and informational power in
those consumer PC's loaded up with Unicode-handling software for a
pittance, are your *friends* in the struggle to keep all economic
power from concentration in
One source for native language names in regular use is the relevant BBC
world service site:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/slovene/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/slovak/
Russian characters have an extra spacing on Mac in both browsers (no
problem on pc).
T h e c h a r a c t e r sl o o k l I k e t h I s there is no
actual space between them. I have been testing on OS X using IE 5.1 and
NS 6.2. This page has the same issue
Following is result of Mac OS X and OmniWeb browser on
http://jshin.net/i18n/utftest
5 cases of proper display:
+Y, BE, 16, UTF-16 and UTF-16BE
+Y, LE, 16, UTF-16
+N, BE, 16, UTF-16 and UTF-16BE
All the rest showed only the ascii correctly.
At 01:42 +0100 2002-04-25, Michael Everson wrote:
On http://jshin.net/i18n/utftest/bom_utf16be.utf16.html under OS X
you don't see just question marks, though -- you see the Last Resort
font showing that Korean characters not present in the font are in
the text. Awesome.
Not sure which font
Hotmail and Yahoo do *not* support UTF-8 in any way.
Nonetheless, [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s sig appears fine on Mac OS X Mail.
see:
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/utf8.html
which has an interesting new entry: Vietnamese N¥m, the first entry
containing non-BMP characters (probably will not be entirely visible to
most people)
Can *anyone* see it properly? Last I checked no browser could read UTF-8
beyond the BMP,
Unicode should be concerned about how people perceive it. And how those
higher ups who approve the budget money to belong to Unicode perceive
things like Tengwar (do any of the member companies plan to add locale
information for Elvish regions, collation, fonts, or anything else?).
Not that I
Can you please expand on your statement that UTF-8 should never have a BOM?
Having one makes it very easy to distinguish a text file that contains UTF-8
from one that contains text in the system default MBCS encoding.
You may not be surprised to learn that Microsoft (or, at least, one of its
I note that companies like Verisign already claim to offer domain names
in dozens of languages and scripts. Apparently these are converted by
something called RACE encoding to ASCII for actual use on the internet.
Does anyone know anything about RACE encoding and its properties?
roozbeh wrote:
But shouldn't you write his name in Cirth? I think that was the script
Hobbits used. Quoting http://www.forodrim.org/daeron/mdtci.html#DTS7:
'I cannot read the fiery letters,' said Frodo (LR 1 II:73), and
Gandalf explained that [t]he letters are Elvish, of an ancient mode,
John Jenkins wrote:
Any Cocoa- or ATSUI-based application on Mac OS X will also work with
astral characters, including the mail client and text-editing program that
come with the OS.
In addition to Mail and TextEdit, I've been able to type Plane 1 stuff into
the Mac OS X Stickies screen notes
is that
there is apparently (according to Alan Woods' page) only one Unicode font
with Lao, namely Arial Unicode MS, which is pretty hard to obtain for Mac
users. Does anyone know of a .ttf alternative to this?
Tom Gewecke
At 00:31 -0500 04/12/2001, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, you are all right: the character used in (as it turns out)
the medical field to mean with is, in fact, c-overbar and not c-underbar.
In Unicode we would say U+0063 U+0305.
The overbar being a flat form of tilde, which in medieval hands
When I've seen the c-underbar in print, it has always meant circa, as
in circa 1800.
Jim
At 10:14 PM 2001-12-01 + Saturday, Michael Everson wrote:
(As a side note, this o-underbar form reminds me of the c-underbar which
is sometimes used in handwritten English to mean with. Does anyone
On 04/18/2001 09:49:40 AM John Jenkins wrote:
At the same time, none of the people involved in defining TrueType --
Adobe, Apple, and Microsoft -- believe that it is really a good idea to
have a single font covering all of Unicode. Microsoft provides one
because there has been a strong push
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