Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized

[Philippe Verdy via Unicode]

So this is effectively (custom HTML-like markup)
  "Bäck-ker"


2017-11-10 4:11 GMT+01:00 Asmus Freytag via Unicode :

> On 11/9/2017 6:40 PM, Elias Mårtenson via Unicode wrote:
>
> On 9 November 2017 at 18:12, Walter Tross  wrote:
>
>> Long story short: it's Abschlusssatz now (and Rollladen, etc.) One of the
>> criteria of the reform was to normalise hyphenation. This has gone so far
>> as to hyphenate Bä-cker, with the additional criterion of keeping the c
>> inside its group.
>>
>
> Wow. That looks incredibly strange to me. Thanks for informing me of this
> change, I would probably have thought it to be a typo if I saw that
> written. As for Bäcker, I presume the previous hyphenation was Bäck-er?
>
>
> no, Bäk-ker ...
>
> (at least that's how it would be written in Swedish). Is this still
> allowed? I.e. are the hyphenation points Bä-ck-er?
>
> Regards,
> Elias
>
>
>

Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized

[Philippe Verdy via Unicode]

2017-11-10 3:40 GMT+01:00 Elias Mårtenson via Unicode :

> On 9 November 2017 at 18:12, Walter Tross  wrote:
>
>> Long story short: it's Abschlusssatz now (and Rollladen, etc.) One of the
>> criteria of the reform was to normalise hyphenation. This has gone so far
>> as to hyphenate Bä-cker, with the additional criterion of keeping the c
>> inside its group.
>>
>
> Wow. That looks incredibly strange to me. Thanks for informing me of this
> change, I would probably have thought it to be a typo if I saw that
> written. As for Bäcker, I presume the previous hyphenation was Bäck-er? (at
>
least that's how it would be written in Swedish). Is this still allowed?
> I.e. are the hyphenation points Bä-ck-er?
>

The strange thing about the "triple s" is that it occurs when hyphenated as
  "sss"
but if hyphenation does not occur, the "triple s" becomes only two (as if
"ss" was contextually creating a ligature as a single "s". We have no
way to create custom hyphenation sequences such as :
  "ss-s"
which is what was really intended (with no hyphen the word is compacted
using only two "s").

Also I presume that to force the grouping of "ck" and avoid the soft hyphen
to break it, a SHY could be used just after it as
  "Bäcker",
but I think what was meant was really this:
  "Bäck-ker"
where the k is repeated AFTER the linebreak while keeping the "ck" group
before.

This is possible to do that with some markup language, but not in Unicode
plain text without requesting the addition of two new controls !

And things could be even worse: here we specify what happens when a
linebreak occurs and specify nothing if it does not (the whole inner
sequence is deleted). So if the "hyphenated triple s" is compacted to a
single sharp s when there's no libebreak, we would need something like this:
  "ßss-s"
And for that we would need at least 3 controls in plain text if we don't
want markup !!!

Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized

[Asmus Freytag via Unicode]

  
  
On 11/9/2017 6:40 PM, Elias Mårtenson
  via Unicode wrote:


  

  On 9 November 2017 at 18:12, Walter
Tross 
wrote:

  Long story short: it's Abschlusssatz now
(and Rollladen, etc.) One of the criteria of the reform
was to normalise hyphenation. This has gone so far as to
hyphenate Bä-cker, with the additional criterion of
keeping the c inside its group.



Wow. That looks incredibly strange to me. Thanks for
  informing me of this change, I would probably have thought
  it to be a typo if I saw that written. As for Bäcker, I
  presume the previous hyphenation was Bäck-er? 
  

  


no, Bäk-ker ...

  

  
(at least that's how it would be written in Swedish).
  Is this still allowed? I.e. are the hyphenation points
  Bä-ck-er?


Regards,
Elias
  

  



  

Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized

[Elias Mårtenson via Unicode]

On 9 November 2017 at 18:12, Walter Tross  wrote:

> Long story short: it's Abschlusssatz now (and Rollladen, etc.) One of the
> criteria of the reform was to normalise hyphenation. This has gone so far
> as to hyphenate Bä-cker, with the additional criterion of keeping the c
> inside its group.
>

Wow. That looks incredibly strange to me. Thanks for informing me of this
change, I would probably have thought it to be a typo if I saw that
written. As for Bäcker, I presume the previous hyphenation was Bäck-er? (at
least that's how it would be written in Swedish). Is this still allowed?
I.e. are the hyphenation points Bä-ck-er?

Regards,
Elias

Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized

[Walter Tross via Unicode]

Long story short: it's Abschlusssatz now (and Rollladen, etc.) One of the
criteria of the reform was to normalise hyphenation. This has gone so far
as to hyphenate Bä-cker, with the additional criterion of keeping the c
inside its group.

2017-11-09 9:47 GMT+01:00 Elias Mårtenson via Unicode :

> On 4 July 2017 at 00:49, Werner LEMBERG via Unicode 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> > No, the hyphenation oddity involving the addition of letters with
>> > hyphenation (or, to be more precise, to suppress letters in
>> > unhyphenated words) never affected the letter s.
>>
>> I'm not sure that this is really true.  As far as I know, `sss' in
>> Swiss German was handled similar to other triplet consonants before
>> the 1996 spelling reform.  In other words, you would have written
>>
>>   Abschlussatz (`closing sentence')
>>
>> instead of
>>
>>   Abschlusssatz  ,
>>
>> and which would have been hyphenated as
>>
>>   Abschluss-satz
>>
>
> This is still the case for Swedish though. I studied German before 1996,
> and I was under the impression that the rules in this case wad identical
> for Swedish and German. What do the rules say now?
>
> Regards,
> Elias
>

Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized

[Elias Mårtenson via Unicode]

On 4 July 2017 at 00:49, Werner LEMBERG via Unicode 
wrote:

>
> > No, the hyphenation oddity involving the addition of letters with
> > hyphenation (or, to be more precise, to suppress letters in
> > unhyphenated words) never affected the letter s.
>
> I'm not sure that this is really true.  As far as I know, `sss' in
> Swiss German was handled similar to other triplet consonants before
> the 1996 spelling reform.  In other words, you would have written
>
>   Abschlussatz (`closing sentence')
>
> instead of
>
>   Abschlusssatz  ,
>
> and which would have been hyphenated as
>
>   Abschluss-satz
>

This is still the case for Swedish though. I studied German before 1996,
and I was under the impression that the rules in this case wad identical
for Swedish and German. What do the rules say now?

Regards,
Elias