Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized
Correct. Just a note: the current hyphenation is Bä-cker (as I wrote in a previous email) ( https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Baecker ) 2017-11-10 4:27 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy via Unicode: > So this is effectively (custom HTML-like markup) > "Bäck-ker" > > > 2017-11-10 4:11 GMT+01:00 Asmus Freytag via Unicode : > >> On 11/9/2017 6:40 PM, Elias Mårtenson via Unicode wrote: >> >> On 9 November 2017 at 18:12, Walter Tross wrote: >> >>> Long story short: it's Abschlusssatz now (and Rollladen, etc.) One of >>> the criteria of the reform was to normalise hyphenation. This has gone so >>> far as to hyphenate Bä-cker, with the additional criterion of keeping the c >>> inside its group. >>> >> >> Wow. That looks incredibly strange to me. Thanks for informing me of this >> change, I would probably have thought it to be a typo if I saw that >> written. As for Bäcker, I presume the previous hyphenation was Bäck-er? >> >> >> no, Bäk-ker ... >> >> (at least that's how it would be written in Swedish). Is this still >> allowed? I.e. are the hyphenation points Bä-ck-er? >> >> Regards, >> Elias >> >> >> >
Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized
So this is effectively (custom HTML-like markup) "Bäck-ker" 2017-11-10 4:11 GMT+01:00 Asmus Freytag via Unicode: > On 11/9/2017 6:40 PM, Elias Mårtenson via Unicode wrote: > > On 9 November 2017 at 18:12, Walter Tross wrote: > >> Long story short: it's Abschlusssatz now (and Rollladen, etc.) One of the >> criteria of the reform was to normalise hyphenation. This has gone so far >> as to hyphenate Bä-cker, with the additional criterion of keeping the c >> inside its group. >> > > Wow. That looks incredibly strange to me. Thanks for informing me of this > change, I would probably have thought it to be a typo if I saw that > written. As for Bäcker, I presume the previous hyphenation was Bäck-er? > > > no, Bäk-ker ... > > (at least that's how it would be written in Swedish). Is this still > allowed? I.e. are the hyphenation points Bä-ck-er? > > Regards, > Elias > > >
Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized
2017-11-10 3:40 GMT+01:00 Elias Mårtenson via Unicode: > On 9 November 2017 at 18:12, Walter Tross wrote: > >> Long story short: it's Abschlusssatz now (and Rollladen, etc.) One of the >> criteria of the reform was to normalise hyphenation. This has gone so far >> as to hyphenate Bä-cker, with the additional criterion of keeping the c >> inside its group. >> > > Wow. That looks incredibly strange to me. Thanks for informing me of this > change, I would probably have thought it to be a typo if I saw that > written. As for Bäcker, I presume the previous hyphenation was Bäck-er? (at > least that's how it would be written in Swedish). Is this still allowed? > I.e. are the hyphenation points Bä-ck-er? > The strange thing about the "triple s" is that it occurs when hyphenated as "sss" but if hyphenation does not occur, the "triple s" becomes only two (as if "ss" was contextually creating a ligature as a single "s". We have no way to create custom hyphenation sequences such as : "ss-s" which is what was really intended (with no hyphen the word is compacted using only two "s"). Also I presume that to force the grouping of "ck" and avoid the soft hyphen to break it, a SHY could be used just after it as "Bäcker", but I think what was meant was really this: "Bäck-ker" where the k is repeated AFTER the linebreak while keeping the "ck" group before. This is possible to do that with some markup language, but not in Unicode plain text without requesting the addition of two new controls ! And things could be even worse: here we specify what happens when a linebreak occurs and specify nothing if it does not (the whole inner sequence is deleted). So if the "hyphenated triple s" is compacted to a single sharp s when there's no libebreak, we would need something like this: "ßss-s" And for that we would need at least 3 controls in plain text if we don't want markup !!!
Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized
On 11/9/2017 6:40 PM, Elias Mårtenson via Unicode wrote: On 9 November 2017 at 18:12, Walter Trosswrote: Long story short: it's Abschlusssatz now (and Rollladen, etc.) One of the criteria of the reform was to normalise hyphenation. This has gone so far as to hyphenate Bä-cker, with the additional criterion of keeping the c inside its group. Wow. That looks incredibly strange to me. Thanks for informing me of this change, I would probably have thought it to be a typo if I saw that written. As for Bäcker, I presume the previous hyphenation was Bäck-er? no, Bäk-ker ... (at least that's how it would be written in Swedish). Is this still allowed? I.e. are the hyphenation points Bä-ck-er? Regards, Elias
Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized
On 9 November 2017 at 18:12, Walter Trosswrote: > Long story short: it's Abschlusssatz now (and Rollladen, etc.) One of the > criteria of the reform was to normalise hyphenation. This has gone so far > as to hyphenate Bä-cker, with the additional criterion of keeping the c > inside its group. > Wow. That looks incredibly strange to me. Thanks for informing me of this change, I would probably have thought it to be a typo if I saw that written. As for Bäcker, I presume the previous hyphenation was Bäck-er? (at least that's how it would be written in Swedish). Is this still allowed? I.e. are the hyphenation points Bä-ck-er? Regards, Elias
Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized
Long story short: it's Abschlusssatz now (and Rollladen, etc.) One of the criteria of the reform was to normalise hyphenation. This has gone so far as to hyphenate Bä-cker, with the additional criterion of keeping the c inside its group. 2017-11-09 9:47 GMT+01:00 Elias Mårtenson via Unicode: > On 4 July 2017 at 00:49, Werner LEMBERG via Unicode > wrote: > >> >> > No, the hyphenation oddity involving the addition of letters with >> > hyphenation (or, to be more precise, to suppress letters in >> > unhyphenated words) never affected the letter s. >> >> I'm not sure that this is really true. As far as I know, `sss' in >> Swiss German was handled similar to other triplet consonants before >> the 1996 spelling reform. In other words, you would have written >> >> Abschlussatz (`closing sentence') >> >> instead of >> >> Abschlusssatz , >> >> and which would have been hyphenated as >> >> Abschluss-satz >> > > This is still the case for Swedish though. I studied German before 1996, > and I was under the impression that the rules in this case wad identical > for Swedish and German. What do the rules say now? > > Regards, > Elias >
Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized
On 4 July 2017 at 00:49, Werner LEMBERG via Unicodewrote: > > > No, the hyphenation oddity involving the addition of letters with > > hyphenation (or, to be more precise, to suppress letters in > > unhyphenated words) never affected the letter s. > > I'm not sure that this is really true. As far as I know, `sss' in > Swiss German was handled similar to other triplet consonants before > the 1996 spelling reform. In other words, you would have written > > Abschlussatz (`closing sentence') > > instead of > > Abschlusssatz , > > and which would have been hyphenated as > > Abschluss-satz > This is still the case for Swedish though. I studied German before 1996, and I was under the impression that the rules in this case wad identical for Swedish and German. What do the rules say now? Regards, Elias
Re: Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized
> No, the hyphenation oddity involving the addition of letters with > hyphenation (or, to be more precise, to suppress letters in > unhyphenated words) never affected the letter s. I'm not sure that this is really true. As far as I know, `sss' in Swiss German was handled similar to other triplet consonants before the 1996 spelling reform. In other words, you would have written Abschlussatz (`closing sentence') instead of Abschlusssatz , and which would have been hyphenated as Abschluss-satz Werner
Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized
No, the hyphenation oddity involving the addition of letters with hyphenation (or, to be more precise, to suppress letters in unhyphenated words) never affected the letter s. It affected other letters (I know examples for f, l, m, n, p, r, and t) when followed by a vowel, like in Schiffahrt/Schiff-fahrt. It was always Sauerstoffflasche with three f's. In the old (1910) spelling of German, ss at the word boundary obligatory became ß. When the ß was replaced by ss (because of all caps or unavailability of the letter), all three s's were retained. In the current orthography, the hyphenation oddity is removed completely. --Jörg Knappen Gesendet: Montag, 03. Juli 2017 um 09:43 Uhr Von: "Alastair Houghton"An: "Jörg Knappen" Cc: a.lukya...@yspu.org, unicode@unicode.org Betreff: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized On 2 Jul 2017, at 16:59, Jörg Knappen via Unicode wrote: > > > Is it possible to design fonts that will render ẞ as SS? > > In fact, that has happened long before the capital letter sharp s was added to Unicode: The T1 encoding (aka Cork encoding) of LaTeX > does this since 1990. The reason for this was correct hyphenation for German words rendered in all caps. Wasn’t there also some oddity relating to hyphenation and “ss”/“SS” in general? I seem to recall that it used to be the case that you ended up with more “s”s than you started with when hyphenating a word containing “ss”… Kind regards, Alastair. -- http://alastairs-place.net
Aw: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized
> Is it possible to design fonts that will render ẞ as SS? In fact, that has happened long before the capital letter sharp s was added to Unicode: The T1 encoding (aka Cork encoding) of LaTeX does this since 1990. The reason for this was correct hyphenation for German words rendered in all caps. --Jörg Knappen Gesendet: Samstag, 01. Juli 2017 um 08:51 Uhr Von: "a.lukyanov via Unicode"An: unicode@unicode.org Betreff: Re: LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S officially recognized Is it possible to design fonts that will render ẞ as SS? So we could choose between ẞ and SS by just selecting the proper font, without changing the text itself. Or perhaps there will be a "font feature" to select this rendering within the same font.