Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Viewer Roadmap

2017-04-06 Thread Tom Davies 
Hi :)
Thanks :))   ^_^

That confirmed what i believed and added some detail i hadn't been aware of
at all.  I hadn't been at all aware of the dBase 3 part and although that's
as clear as mud to me right now it's not something i feel i need to
understand any better.  It kinda sounds like there is some sort of
duplication of functionality that would be a nightmare to unentangle.

My experience of MS's jet-engine was that it kinda worked just fine but i
take the point about Murphy's Law wrt back-ups for it - ie  the only way to
ensure you don't need a back-up is to go to the trouble of making one.
Although i did once make a back-up of one at work and needed it right
away.

Anyway, thanks Garvin and Jonathon for fixing my existential anxiety so
quickly ! :))
Thanks and regards from
Tom :)





On 6 April 2017 at 19:57, toki  wrote:

> On 04/06/2017 05:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
>
> > Errr, sorry my question looks so rude!
>
> Not rude. More like an exclamation of surprise, such as when the referee
> knocks out the football player.
>
> > wondering if i have been wrong, and giving wrong advice as a result!
>
> Base works well with most database engines. (I always had issues with
> the Jet Database Engine.)
>
> I was specifically referring to SQLite, which, as far as database
> engines goes, manages to break every rule out there, whilst remaining
> ACID compliant.)
>
> > despite an internal one being hastily thrown on years
>
> I wouldn't say "hastily thrown on".
>
> There was a fair amount of discussion about which database engine to
> use. the major choices were SQLite, and HSqldb. One of the major
> objections to using SQLite was the absence of data typing.  (I think
> that one can say that technically, SQLite does do data typing, and that
> it pays more attention to data types today, than it did back in 2000.
> However, for all practical purposes, there is no data-typing.)
>
> > ago in order to downgrade Base to be more like Access?
>
> I wouldn't call it a downgrade
>
> The Jet Database Engine, especially back in 2000, was crap. Data
> corruption was a given.  If you didn't back up the database before you
> used it, your data would be trashed, when using it. If you did backup
> your data, then it wouldn't be trashed.
>
> Originally, Base was a front-end UI to connect with any database engine
> out there. However, Base didn't provide the front end experience of
> dBase 3, or Access. The dBase 3 clone that was built into OOo, had its
> own separate front end, independent of Base. As best as I can tell, that
> functionality is still present. OTOH, I haven't tried using it since
> circa 2007. (^1)
>
> Users migrating from MSO expected a database engine, to be included in
> their office suite. Nobody told them about the dBase 3 clone in OOo.
> (Small mercy, because that UI was a disaster area.) Consequently, a
> database engine was incorporated into OOo. Then users complained,
> because it didn't enable one to create forms, and other things, the way
> that MSO does. Somebody wrote a set of macros, that gave LibO, the same
> type of form interface as MSO. Somebody else came up with a way to
> include those forms, and other things, in the resulting database.
>
> The net result is that one can create databases with LibO, including
> forms, as easily as on MSO. (Actually, I'd say that the resulting forms
> are better, because they can export directly to Write, and get
> pretty-printed there. I don't remember if one can go straight from form
> to PDF, or if one has to go through Write, first.)
>
> 
>
> If one prowls the appropriate part of the OOo and LibO websites --- not
> the template section --- one can find examples of Base being used for a
> music collection (8 track cassettes, but not records), recipes, and
> project management.
>
> Neither the LibO nor AOo site enable one to select templates
> specifically for Base. Using "Base" as a keyword search brings up a
> number of unrelated templates.
>
> ^1: The Bibliography component uses the dBase 3 clone. Now that
> virtually all my reference material is digital, I use Calibre to
> organize, create, and maintain bibliographies for my creative output.
>
> jonathon
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Viewer Roadmap

2017-04-06 Thread toki 
On 04/06/2017 05:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

> Errr, sorry my question looks so rude! 

Not rude. More like an exclamation of surprise, such as when the referee
knocks out the football player.

> wondering if i have been wrong, and giving wrong advice as a result!  

Base works well with most database engines. (I always had issues with
the Jet Database Engine.)

I was specifically referring to SQLite, which, as far as database
engines goes, manages to break every rule out there, whilst remaining
ACID compliant.)

> despite an internal one being hastily thrown on years

I wouldn't say "hastily thrown on".

There was a fair amount of discussion about which database engine to
use. the major choices were SQLite, and HSqldb. One of the major
objections to using SQLite was the absence of data typing.  (I think
that one can say that technically, SQLite does do data typing, and that
it pays more attention to data types today, than it did back in 2000.
However, for all practical purposes, there is no data-typing.)

> ago in order to downgrade Base to be more like Access?

I wouldn't call it a downgrade

The Jet Database Engine, especially back in 2000, was crap. Data
corruption was a given.  If you didn't back up the database before you
used it, your data would be trashed, when using it. If you did backup
your data, then it wouldn't be trashed.

Originally, Base was a front-end UI to connect with any database engine
out there. However, Base didn't provide the front end experience of
dBase 3, or Access. The dBase 3 clone that was built into OOo, had its
own separate front end, independent of Base. As best as I can tell, that
functionality is still present. OTOH, I haven't tried using it since
circa 2007. (^1)

Users migrating from MSO expected a database engine, to be included in
their office suite. Nobody told them about the dBase 3 clone in OOo.
(Small mercy, because that UI was a disaster area.) Consequently, a
database engine was incorporated into OOo. Then users complained,
because it didn't enable one to create forms, and other things, the way
that MSO does. Somebody wrote a set of macros, that gave LibO, the same
type of form interface as MSO. Somebody else came up with a way to
include those forms, and other things, in the resulting database.

The net result is that one can create databases with LibO, including
forms, as easily as on MSO. (Actually, I'd say that the resulting forms
are better, because they can export directly to Write, and get
pretty-printed there. I don't remember if one can go straight from form
to PDF, or if one has to go through Write, first.)



If one prowls the appropriate part of the OOo and LibO websites --- not
the template section --- one can find examples of Base being used for a
music collection (8 track cassettes, but not records), recipes, and
project management.

Neither the LibO nor AOo site enable one to select templates
specifically for Base. Using "Base" as a keyword search brings up a
number of unrelated templates.

^1: The Bibliography component uses the dBase 3 clone. Now that
virtually all my reference material is digital, I use Calibre to
organize, create, and maintain bibliographies for my creative output.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Viewer Roadmap

2017-04-06 Thread Girvin Herr 

Greetings Tom,

I can attest that Base works well with MySQL/Mariadb (M/M).  I 
understand that Base still requires the Java Connector 
(mysql-connector-java) to talk M/M to the server (aka "Back End").  At 
least that is how I still have Base configured.  There was talk of a 
"native" Base driver for MySQL, but to my knowledge, that has not been 
deployed to date.


Girvin


On 04/06/2017 10:27 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
Ok, so is it just SQLite that is an odd exception or was the general 'rule'
i gave completely wrong?

I'm under the impression that Base works well with Postgresql,
MySQL/MariaDb, Hsqldb (as an external back-end), Firebird and many/most(??)
others? Also that the kinda default way iof using Base is to use some
external back-end - despite an internal one being hastily thrown on years
ago in order to downgrade Base to be more like Access?

Regards from
Tom :)



On 6 April 2017 at 17:48, toki  wrote:



On 04/06/2017 07:05 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote:


the main problem with SQLite in relation to its use in LO is its lack of

strong data typing

Data typing and SQLite are mutually exclusive concepts.


in SQLite, which doesn't bode well when trying to determine whether the
string is a date, a timestamp, a large number, or some other kind of

As far as SQLite is concerned, there is no difference between an
integer, and an mp4 video file.

For those who don't pay attention to what they are doing, such things
can have unexpected, and occasionally undesirable results.

There is that fringe minority, that sees such data ambiguity as a virtue.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Viewer Roadmap

2017-04-06 Thread Tom Davies 
Hi :)
Errr, sorry my question looks so rude!  I am honestly just curious and
wondering if i have been wrong, and giving wrong advice as a result!  If i
am wrong it wouldn't be hugely unusual but i'd like to be able to give
better advice in the future.

One of my main reasons for joining this mailing list in the first place was
to learn from others and i feel i have learned quite a lot from the people
here over the years but i am aware that i misunderstand quite a lot of
things that people say.
Regards from
Tom :)




On 6 April 2017 at 18:27, Tom Davies  wrote:

> Hi :)
> Ok, so is it just SQLite that is an odd exception or was the general
> 'rule' i gave completely wrong?
>
> I'm under the impression that Base works well with Postgresql,
> MySQL/MariaDb, Hsqldb (as an external back-end), Firebird and many/most(??)
> others? Also that the kinda default way iof using Base is to use some
> external back-end - despite an internal one being hastily thrown on years
> ago in order to downgrade Base to be more like Access?
>
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
> On 6 April 2017 at 17:48, toki  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 04/06/2017 07:05 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote:
>>
>> > the main problem with SQLite in relation to its use in LO is its lack
>> of strong data typing
>>
>> Data typing and SQLite are mutually exclusive concepts.
>>
>> > in SQLite, which doesn't bode well when trying to determine whether the
>> > string is a date, a timestamp, a large number, or some other kind of
>>
>> As far as SQLite is concerned, there is no difference between an
>> integer, and an mp4 video file.
>>
>> For those who don't pay attention to what they are doing, such things
>> can have unexpected, and occasionally undesirable results.
>>
>> There is that fringe minority, that sees such data ambiguity as a virtue.
>>
>> jonathon
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
>> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-uns
>> ubscribe/
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>> deleted
>>
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Viewer Roadmap

2017-04-06 Thread Tom Davies 
Hi :)
Ok, so is it just SQLite that is an odd exception or was the general 'rule'
i gave completely wrong?

I'm under the impression that Base works well with Postgresql,
MySQL/MariaDb, Hsqldb (as an external back-end), Firebird and many/most(??)
others? Also that the kinda default way iof using Base is to use some
external back-end - despite an internal one being hastily thrown on years
ago in order to downgrade Base to be more like Access?

Regards from
Tom :)



On 6 April 2017 at 17:48, toki  wrote:

>
>
> On 04/06/2017 07:05 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote:
>
> > the main problem with SQLite in relation to its use in LO is its lack of
> strong data typing
>
> Data typing and SQLite are mutually exclusive concepts.
>
> > in SQLite, which doesn't bode well when trying to determine whether the
> > string is a date, a timestamp, a large number, or some other kind of
>
> As far as SQLite is concerned, there is no difference between an
> integer, and an mp4 video file.
>
> For those who don't pay attention to what they are doing, such things
> can have unexpected, and occasionally undesirable results.
>
> There is that fringe minority, that sees such data ambiguity as a virtue.
>
> jonathon
>
> --
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Viewer Roadmap

2017-04-06 Thread toki 


On 04/06/2017 07:05 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote:

> the main problem with SQLite in relation to its use in LO is its lack of 
> strong data typing

Data typing and SQLite are mutually exclusive concepts.

> in SQLite, which doesn't bode well when trying to determine whether the
> string is a date, a timestamp, a large number, or some other kind of

As far as SQLite is concerned, there is no difference between an
integer, and an mp4 video file.

For those who don't pay attention to what they are doing, such things
can have unexpected, and occasionally undesirable results.

There is that fringe minority, that sees such data ambiguity as a virtue.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Viewer Roadmap

2017-04-05 Thread Tom Davies 
Hi :)
SQLite can be used as a back-end for Base, as can many other database
programs.  One of the strengths of LibreOffice/OpenOffice Base is that it
is designed to use a wide variety of back-ends.
Regards from
Tom )

On 5 April 2017 at 18:56, toki  wrote:

> On 04/05/2017 09:50 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote:
>
> > instantiate one, and at least hsqldb.jar and/or embedded firebird db
> engines and probably a few other jar files ...
> ...
> > for ODB files that use a separate db engine, that would require a whole
> other specific development.
>
> Thanks. I hadn't thought about having to port the database engines.
> (For some reason, I keep thinking that LibO uses SQLite.)
>
> jonathon
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Viewer Roadmap

2017-04-05 Thread toki 
On 04/05/2017 09:50 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote:

> instantiate one, and at least hsqldb.jar and/or embedded firebird db engines 
> and probably a few other jar files ...
...
> for ODB files that use a separate db engine, that would require a whole other 
> specific development.

Thanks. I hadn't thought about having to port the database engines.
(For some reason, I keep thinking that LibO uses SQLite.)

jonathon

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