- Original Message -
From: Stephen A. Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 3:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox
...
This is not a paradox, and the paradoxical nature of the problem
was in fact resolved something on the
- Original Message -
From: David Thomson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 4:08 AM
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters
...
My guess is that the potential needs to be increased proportional to the
vacuum. So if you double the vacuum, you need to double
Contrary to Nanosolar, thos guys print their PV material on conductive plastic
http://www.konarka.com/technology/
Allowing flexible integration into products they say
http://www.konarka.com/products/
Solar perspectives look brighter and brighter!
--
Michel
On 2/15/07, Kyle R. Mcallister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
All,
As far as the lifters go, I can say this: I have worked with these little
gizmos quite a bit in the past, particularly several years ago when
Transdimensional and all started the hype. I don't know what NASA has to
say about them, nor
Hi Michel,
...
My guess is that the potential needs to be increased proportional to the
vacuum. So if you double the vacuum, you need to double the potential.
...
Multiply it by root 2 in fact. To maintain the same thrust, every time you
halve the pressure you must double the current,
Ok so far as I can see there is only one magnet clearly visible and all
the motion is the product of fingers and the tweezers poking it. Are we
sure they are legit images of the Steorn thing since there is no self
motion visible in those pictures? The little arm on the right is a
classic
Nick Palmer wrote:
Robin from Oz wrote:-
I wouldn't get too hung up on this prize. It looks more like Branson buying
cheap advertising.
Right, of course. A true solution would still be good value at $1
billion dollars or maybe even $1 trillion
It would take billions or perhaps trillions
Michel Jullian wrote:
- Original Message - From: Stephen A. Lawrence
[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February
16, 2007 3:37 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]: FW: Einstein's Twin Paradox
...
This is not a paradox, and the paradoxical nature of the
problem was in fact
Hi Michel,
The only problem with ion wind theory is that there isn't enough thrust in
the ions to cause a lifter to lift. What's more, you can reverse the
polarity of the wire and broad conductor and the lift is the same. If
electrons were being emitted as ion wind in one case, they would
On 2/16/07, Wesley Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ok so far as I can see there is only one magnet clearly visible and all
the motion is the product of fingers and the tweezers poking it. Are we
sure they are legit images of the Steorn thing since there is no self
motion visible in those
Wesley Bruce wrote:
Ok so far as I can see there is only one magnet clearly visible and all
the motion is the product of fingers and the tweezers poking it. Are we
sure they are legit images of the Steorn thing since there is no self
motion visible in those pictures?
Is that really a
I say kudos too. But plug-in hybrids or CF wouldn't qualify I am afraid. Unless
I misunderstood the rules, what Branson is after is a technology to pump the
CO2 out of the atmosphere, not to reduce emissions.
Michel
- Original Message -
From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:
You are talking about what we might call coordinate acceleration
Yes indeed Stephen, we might call it thus, although just acceleration is
better and simpler. Time derivative of velocity in an arbitrary frame, not just
an inertial one. That's the most general definition of acceleration, that's
Michel Jullian wrote:
I say kudos too. But plug-in hybrids or CF
wouldn't qualify I am afraid. Unless I
misunderstood the rules, what Branson is after
is a technology to pump the CO2 out of the atmosphere, not to reduce emissions.
Huh. I am not surprised, but that's silly. The
two are
- Original Message -
From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million Branson Climate Prize
...
If you reduce
emissions enough, nature will pump the extra CO2
out of the atmosphere soon
Good try Dave, but you need to learn a bit more about corona discharges. As a
matter of fact you do get air entraining ion flow, aka ion wind or electric
wind, in both corona polarities: +ve ions when the wire is +ve wrt the skirt,
-ve ions when you reverse polarity. Air ions of both signs have
Michel Jullian wrote:
If you reduce
emissions enough, nature will pump the extra CO2
out of the atmosphere soon enough.
They are talking about 1000 years at least for natural elimination :/
More like 300 to 600 years by my calculations. See chapters 8 and 9 in my book:
Suppose the goal
What's a few hundred years between friends? ;-)
How long would it take by harvesting algae on a large scale then?
Michel
- Original Message -
From: Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: The $25 Million
Hi Michel,
Good try Dave, but you need to learn a bit more about corona discharges.
Was it necessary to make this dig?
If you're interested in a straightforward derivation of some of the
characteristics (thickness, voltage drop) of the plasma sheath, here
is one I wrote some time ago
I
Jed, I meant $1 billion dollars for the prize! Also the challenge is to come
up with a way of REMOVING millions of tonnes of CO2 from the atmosphere, not
just ways to put less of it in...
JR The best method to pump CO2 out of the air is obvious, in any case.
You reforest large areas of formerly
Dave,
Honestly it was not a dig, a mere statement of a fact. The fact is not a
disgrace either, no-one can be expected to know everything. The remark might
have been legitimately interpreted as an insult if I had stopped at that maybe,
but instead I endeavoured to explain what you had missed
Oops sorry my English, I meant insulted not vindicated.
Michel
- Original Message -
From: Michel Jullian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters
Dave,
Honestly it was not a dig, a mere statement of a fact. The
Nick Palmer wrote:
Planting more forest in, say, Canada, can
actually be a source of global warming - see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_offset and scroll down to Climate
impacts
That assertion is a lot of crap. The whole article seems to be
suffused with anti-environmentalist nonsense.
At the beginning of the derivation it says ion mass is irrelevant here (no
inertia effects).
If it is irrelevant than the derived force does not really correspond to a
thrust.
Harry
Michel Jullian wrote:
...the thrust formula
I*d/mu where ion mobility mu...
Also, for you Michel, why does
Russ sez he can sequester carbon. Here is a direct link to the vid,
from Tom Valone:
www.planktos.com/media/rg_kgo_small.wmv
- Jed
http://physorg.com/news90782778.html
Antarctic Temperatures Disagree with Climate Model Predictions
A new report on climate over the world's southernmost continent shows
that temperatures during the late 20th century did not climb as had
been predicted by many global climate models.
more
But the air propelled downwards by the ion has a mass (hidden in the ion
mobility parameter), that's what's matters, just like the mass of a
helicopter's propeller is irrelevant. If one can speak of thrust for a
helicopter, one can speak of thrust for a lifter.
BTW the momentum of the
I wrote:
Planting more forest in, say, Canada, can
actually be a source of global warming - see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_offset and scroll down to Climate
impacts
That assertion is a lot of crap.
To put it another way, does anyone seriously assert that we should
cut down all
Well, that sound-byte is a bit disingenuous, as Russ has borrowed the
(unpatented) idea and experimental results of the late John Martin, who
was less optimistic about the outcome ... JM was former director of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_Landing_Marine_Laboratories
... and one assumes
Hi Michel,
But the air propelled downwards by the ion has a mass (hidden in the ion
mobility parameter), that's what's matters, just like the mass of a
helicopter's propeller is irrelevant. If one can speak of thrust for a
helicopter, one can speak of thrust for a lifter.
Several people have
Michel Jullian wrote:
What's a few hundred years between friends? ;-)
How long would it take by harvesting algae on a large scale then?
I do not know. However:
We have no simple method of harvesting ocean algae, whereas people
have been harvesting trees for thousands of years. (It would be
Jed wrote:-
To put it another way, does anyone seriously assert that we should
cut down all the trees in Canada to help prevent global warming?
No-one is asserting this as far as I know. That would be bonkers. The Wiki
article was talking about afforestation (planting forest on land that has
Your point about tropical forests being generators of reflective clouds makes
me think that solving global warming by altering the albedo only (e.g. by
making artificial clouds to reflect more of the incident sunlight, which may be
possible on a large scale using ultrasonic nebulization)
The airflow blocking experiments I am aware of (e.g. at Blazelabs a continuous
plate was used as the ion collector instead of a grid) demonstrated the
opposite: no lift. Which is only to be expected: if you block the airflow by a
plate attached to the lifter, the momentum given to the air is
- Original Message -
From: Michel Jullian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:06 PM
Subject: [Vo]: Re: Lifters
They work fine in a grounded metal cage in my experience. In the
experiments you describe it may be more a question of the LDPE
- Original Message -
From: David Thomson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:08 PM
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters
What was the highest potential used in the vacuum experiments?
Around 20kV.
As I see it, there is a balance between the charges
- Original Message -
From: Harry Veeder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters
Did they place the box (with lifter inside) on a scale?
The weight should not change if it is ion wind.
I did it with a balance
Mmm, growing the algae without harvesting them _could_ be sufficient (pending
calculations), but only for a one off operation: present excess CO2 sequestered
into the living algae biomass increase, period. Could win the prize though.
What surprises me most with this scheme is that one should
Two things, for one there are many uses for wood, as long as it's not burnt
why not make use of what you can rather than just burying.
And secondly the rate of pine growth varies greatly, see:
http://www.forestenterprises.co.nz/new/afi/nzplantation.htm
So location is key, as is choosing a very
Hi Kyle,
My guess is that the potential needs to be increased proportional to the
vacuum. So if you double the vacuum, you need to double the potential.
But to what end? If there is no medium to push against, even if you have
100MV across the thing, it won't fly around.
Space-time is a
I don't see what need there is to take the carbon out of the air. We spent
150 years of hard work getting all that sequestered carbon back into the
biosphere.
Don't these people realize the climate of the Earth was most stable during
the time of the dinosaurs? Our planet went for hundreds of
Beware of the MIB Dave, unless the MIW get hold of you first? :)
Michel
- Original Message -
From: David Thomson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 12:48 AM
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Lifters
Hi Kyle,
My guess is that the potential needs to be
Hi Michel,
Beware of the MIB Dave, unless the MIW get hold of you first? :)
I have no clue what you are talking about.
Dave
Jed wrote,
snip
I am certain that returning Canada, the U.S. and other temperate areas to
their original forestation would sequester gigantic amounts of CO2 and
help reverse global warming.
Originally, I believe, the US area was one deciduous forest all the way to
the Missouri river and
-Forwarded Message-from Akira Kawasaki
From: What's New [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Feb 16, 2007 1:45 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday February 16, 2007
WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 16 Feb 07 Washington, DC
1. UNCONSCIOUS: PRINCETON
David Thomson wrote:-
I don't see what need there is to take the carbon out of the air. We
spent 150 years of hard work getting all that sequestered carbon back into
the biosphere.
Don't these people realize the climate of the Earth was most stable during
the time of the dinosaurs?
E,
Hi Nick,
E, Dave, that may be true but getting from where we are now to that
paradise involves going through a probably horrendous series of probably
violent climate instabilities. Billions of people would die, millions of
species would be wiped out.
There is no two ways about it, you
On 2/17/07, David Thomson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Your position, like that dangerous
lunatic
Singer, is rather like that of the punk versus Dirty Harry who felt
lucky and fatally got on the wrong side of a Magnum...
No Nick, I'm probably the most safe and sane thinker on this debate.
Hi John,
Obviously it can be stopped, saying otherwise is foolish.
Obviously it cannot be stopped. It has already happened a dozen times in
the past 120,000 years. What makes you think we are special and climate
change was not going to happen to us?
Dave
Human achievements are significant.
Ultimately almost anything is possible, some things man has envisioned doing
in the future:
Make an elevator to geosynchronous (I assume?) orbit.
Make nano machines
Both of those may even be near future.
For the somewhat more distant future there are
Michel Jullian wrote:
But the air propelled downwards by the ion has a mass (hidden in the ion
mobility parameter), that's what's matters, just like the mass of a
helicopter's propeller is irrelevant. If one can speak of thrust for a
helicopter, one can speak of thrust for a lifter.
Ok. I
Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Harry Veeder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Lifters
Did they place the box (with lifter inside) on a scale?
The weight should not change if it is ion
Michel Jullian wrote:
The airflow blocking experiments I am aware of (e.g. at Blazelabs a continuous
plate was used as the ion collector instead of a grid) demonstrated the
opposite: no lift. Which is only to be expected: if you block the airflow by a
plate attached to the lifter, the
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain Mr. Branson.
http://www.newenergytimes.com/SR/CashIn/CashonClimateChange.html
David Thomson wrote:
Hi Kyle,
to push against? Or are you of the
opinion that it is reactionless?
Nothing is reactionless. I am of the informed opinion that space-time has a
quantum structure, complete with electrostatic dipoles. Matter can directly
interact with space-time.
On the
Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Michel Jullian [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:06 PM
Subject: [Vo]: Re: Lifters
They work fine in a grounded metal cage in my experience. In the
experiments you describe it may be
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