Fw: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Found this in mail during search and worthy of mention as a first case model  Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/ On Sunday, June 14, 2015 4:08 AM, Harvey Norris wrote: From my understanding, there are

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Jack Cole jcol...@gmail.com wrote: 2) the unfueled cell should have the same weight of nickel only leaving out the LAH If there is unalloyed nickel powder in one of the tubes, will there be arc discharges or sublimation of the nickel when the microwave is

RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

From: David Roberson The report that Parkhomov generated implied that his steam quality was very good since the calibration worked as expected with a known heating power. Is there reason to believe that the physical arrangement of his bucket calorimeter is especially good at keeping the

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

It appears that I need to reread that report to see why his power measurement was questionable. I wonder why the input power would read accurately enough for the physics to work out on the heating calibration run but not when the LENR load was connected? But the point I was considering was

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Do you understand why so many of the skeptics of Parkhomov's boiling bucket system stick to the notion that his test is not valid due to water escaping along with the steam? I am not aware that skeptics brought this up. If they did it is because he did

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

I wrote: Perhaps the location of the LENR heated inner container lid tends to super heat the steam slightly before it exits his device. That is how the spout on a kettle heated over a fire usually works. It sticks out over the side, above the flame. Like this traditional iron Japanese

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Jed, but there's a problem, which are the inefficiencies of transforming microwaves into heat. Notice how irregular is heating food. How that would be measured, calibrated? It doesn't seem that easier. You do not have to measure it, because you assume

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

I think it is really simple, magnetic heating, it's coiling a tube . I the field is homogenous inside it. Though, there is a problem in both microwave and this. The usual method, with a heater, heats the gas which heats the sample, but now the sample is heated. Given the size of the sample, it

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

This an intersting videos: www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw_SrGU2iYs (it made copper melt, so it went up to 2562 and uses 2.5kw) www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J9Dg1gKJpQ This one boils iron (2862C) The best part of it is the non contact with the apparatus and the simplicity of the system. Though I think

RE: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

From: Daniel Rocha Ø Why not heating it with magnetic induction? Induction makes sense – at least for the entry level experiment, based on these considerations 1) Cost – 1500 watt microwave oven costs $150 – whereas 1800 watt induction cooktop is $75 2) Efficiency –

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Also, even with the control, it is like food. Using different food will heat differently. The material of the control should be different from the actual cell.

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Why not heating it with magnetic induction?

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Why not heating it with magnetic induction? I guess that would be okay, but microwave ovens are cheap and readily available.

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Magnetic induction stops at the curie point. VHF Microwaves will heat only the top of the skin of the reactor due to eddy current resistive heating. Microwave will not penitrate skin so what is inside the reactor does not matter to the skin heating process. Protecting the IR sensor from the

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Magnetic induction has problems as well. Nothing is going to substitute for a calibrated calorimeter. And, in my opinion, direct heating with resistive elements is the best way to get a true handle upon the input power. Power, voltage, and current meters can be calibrated to extreme accuracy

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Also, even with the control, it is like food. Using different food will heat differently. The material of the control should be different from the actual cell. Microwave ovens are tuned to heat water, so the water content is what controls how hot food

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

The dummy reactor comparison is the most simple concept to understand for the non expert. There are not many calorimeter experts. The simplest demo is the most persuasive demo. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I agree with Dan. It will be more

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

I agree with Dan. It will be more difficult to convince anyone except a person that believes that LENR is real. This technique is no where near as reliable as a true, calibrated calorimeter. There are just too many variables to contend with. If the goal is to prove that LENR exists to

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Magnetic induction heating does not stop at the Curie point. Any conductive metal or material can be heated in that manner. The only requirement is that the resistance of the material remains within a reasonable range of values. Power is due to (induced current) squared x (effective

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

It does not matter what we do to the dummy/fueled reactor pair, as long as the stimulation is equal, nother more matters. Run a test with two dummies and show that ther temperatures are equal at the high end temperature range. Then run a dummy/fuel pair and show that the fueled reactor is 500C

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

To anyone requiring absolute proof, the dummy reactor will not be adequate. The mere fact that it looks the same and behaves differently proves that it is not an exact replacement. Magic tricks use this same type of desception to convince folks that what they are seeing defies common sense.

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Dave-- Steam separators are a common device in steam driven apparatus. They work by centripetal force on the water dropplets. Bob From: David Roberson Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 9:35 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly Fran, one

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Do you understand why so many of the skeptics of Parkhomov's boiling bucket system stick to the notion that his test is not valid due to water escaping along with the steam? With that thought to consider it seems likely that they would complain about the kettle idea as well. This leaves me

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Is there a method that can be used to ensure that the steam quality is 100%? Sparge it. (Condense it in cold water.) This is probably only accurate to within plus minus 5% but there can be no mistake about the results. It only works with power of ~100

RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Dave, Good argument BUT one thought to consider is what if this heating coil self destruct is the primary failure for large COP LENR experiments. This would make the experiment worthwhile in that it would immediately open the door to scaling the heating value beyond the microwaves ability as a

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Anyone except for a skeptical scientist that must assume some type of trick since it appears to violate his core beliefs. I am afraid it sounds like some religious behavior; perhaps that is exactly what strong belief in theory amounts to! Dave -Original Message- From: Axil

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Let us assume that it is impossible to show LENR works to anyone via experiment. Then what is the perpose of the LENR experiement? The open source community should provide as much LENR knowledge as possible to all those working on LENR. This knowledge could be a springboard to the establishment of

RE: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

From: David Roberson * * Jones, my main concern with the induction cook top is the mismatch between the heating coil and the typical shape of the fuel cores. If researchers change the form factor of the fuel into a planar design, which sure seem possible, then that issue can be

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

The induction heater would melt the nickel particles and the microwave will not get into the core of the reactor. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: *From:* Daniel Rocha Ø Why not heating it with magnetic induction? Induction makes sense – at

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

From: Roarty, Francis X Ø Dave, Good argument BUT one thought to consider is what if this heating coil self destruct is the primary failure for large COP LENR experiments. Yes, the coil is the huge problem, thus far insurmountable; and in contrast - good calibration can be designed

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Jones, my main concern with the induction cook top is the mismatch between the heating coil and the typical shape of the fuel cores. If researchers change the form factor of the fuel into a planar design, which sure seem possible, then that issue can be somewhat resolved. After all, Rossi's

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Fran, one problem that I recall that always arises is the question concerning the quality of the steam that boils off. The final skeptical trump card is that liquid water is carried by the rapidly moving steam and immediately invalidates the calculation of the amount of heat exiting the

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

A test we might hope to see is heat afer death where a fueled reactor is red hot after 10 minutes, the microwave off, and the dummy reactor cooled to darkness. That would impress anybody. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 12:05 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: To anyone requiring absolute

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

See table 2.1: http://www.asminternational.org/documents/10192/3451119/ACFAA5C.pdf/98899692-8a69-446d-ac9a-38b8fab3a160 No material can provide the range of control needed by induction to cover the requirement from a 100C to 1400C reator test. On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:49 AM, David Roberson

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Does it not seem reasonable to believe that the local heating of the nickel particles by induction would spread out beyond just those particles? It is a pretty complicated mess to deal with, but there is reason to assume that all of the metal would become heated in the vicinity. It is going

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

There is the bulk calorimetry demanded by true believers in the popular interpretation of physical theory. One possible way: Go to Walmart. Buy an above-ground swimming pool for a few hundred bucks. Install it in a basement or anywhere the temperature can be controlled to within a degree or so.

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Jones, I am concerned that no one has been able to overcome the claims of skeptics that liquid water escapes with the steam and therefore confuses the measurement. We need to come up with a dummy proof method that ensures that the steam leaving the system is pure. That may be a challenge that

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Jones, I am concerned that no one has been able to overcome the claims of skeptics that liquid water escapes with the steam and therefore confuses the measurement. We need to come up with a dummy proof method that ensures that the steam leaving the

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Your plan seems reasonable to me Jed. Are you convinced that the scientific community will accept it as valid? If that hurdle is overcome then this technique would appear plausible in the quest to prove LENR. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Your plan seems reasonable to me Jed. Are you convinced that the scientific community will accept it as valid? Anyone who does not accept that is hopeless, and will never accept anything. What I described about kettles has been common knowledge for

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

OK David, I am not much of an experimenter but I can certainly have ideas and you asked for them so ;) I have always believed there is a competence in incompetence - hard to utilize I agree. Here is my thoughts: Take two identical induction heaters place a loaded LENR reactor in one and a non

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Thanks Lennart, I consider your use of a large flat plate of steel to meter the induction heating as interesting. The remainder of the concept seems to be more complicated than most experimenters would be capable of dealing with. I tend to go for the simple ideas first, but that is not a

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Go to Walmart. Buy an above-ground swimming pool for a few hundred bucks. Install it in a basement or anywhere the temperature can be controlled to within a degree or so. Fill it. Turn on the filter pump to circulate water. Put the apparatus in it.

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Makes sense to me. If we can couple one of these systems made of glass or some other material that does not interact with the induction heater with a well controlled, and metered energy acceptor, then that might work well enough as a calorimeter. The steel plate concept just proposed or maybe

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Here is one other thing about measuring heat by boiling water. I recommend you put the entire vessel on a weight scale, if you can. Weigh it before and after the test. That is better than pouring out the remaining water and weighing it. You may fail to account for a lot of water when you pour it

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Another thing with steam: It would not hurt to do a reality check by sparging the steam for 10 minutes. You can't do it much longer, or the bucket will start to cool significantly.

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

There is an engineering cost trade off between the length of the experiment (hence integral of power) and the volume of water. For the definitive long duration bulk calorimetry tests people demand. At a few weeks duration (as apparently Rossie was forced to do by his potential customers) we're

RE: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

From: David Roberson … my main concern with the induction cooktop is the mismatch between the heating coil and the typical shape of the fuel cores. If researchers change the form factor of the fuel into a planar design … then that issue can be somewhat resolved. Dave, one more thing I

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Jack, That is true provided it is possible to determine the efficiency of the driver with respect to power ending up within the core load. Calibration of the load is going to be difficult. Dave -Original Message- From: Jack Cole jcol...@gmail.com To: vortex-l

RE: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Harvey, As the world’s leading (and possibly only) expert on “interphasal resonance” … can you comment specifically on Rossi’s power supply, used at Lugano. If you have done so, either I missed it or did not understand it. Rossi specifically mentions this power supply in his patent

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Jones, I agree with your desire to find an easy to use and inexpensive heating method. I am just pointing out that it may become a very difficult task to get efficient heating unless the drive coil is a reasonable match to the load. You can visualize what I am pointing out by taking a normal

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

From my understanding, there are situations where the amount of energy in oscillation between L and C in series resonance can exceed the amount of real energy manifested as I squared R heating losses. Many years ago I got the idea that that if you sandwiched three phases of 120 degree time

RE: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Strange thought.. could “interphasal resonance” be the tail on a zero point kite? From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 10:06 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: RE: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly Harvey, As the world’s leading (and possibly

Fwd: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

How to setup a very simple glow stick LENR test with a microwave oven. Use a microwave with a rotating glass turntable. Cover the glass turntable with a one inch layer of high temperature insolation. Use a reactor design composed of an alumina or zirconia tube or a mixture of alumina and

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

I agree that in the future, it may be valuable to use inductive heating on LENR devices that could evolve from the Lugano/Parkhomov/glowstick reactors. However, at this stage in the game, I don't feel this technology is necessary or desirable. It is not desirable because it is difficult

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

https://www.wpi.edu/academics/math/CIMS/IMMG/Seminars/Past/Seminar12/Docs/Paper-12-9.pdf It is possible to build a custom microwave oven fed by two 1 kW, 2.45 GHz magnetrons to heat alumina up to 1300C. On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: As Peter laments,

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16541664 Alumina and zirconia powder mix (l00%Al2O3, 60%Al2O3+40%ZrO2, 40% Al2O3+60%ZrO2, 100% ZrO2) were respectively press-compacted was heated to 1600C in a idomestic microwave oven (850 W, 2 450 MHz) On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 3:12 PM, Axil Axil

RE: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

One magnetron is sufficient. SiC apparently works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoipiXvFAKQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoipiXvFAKQhtml5=1 html5=1 From: Axil Axil It is possible to build a custom microwave oven fed by two 1 kW, 2.45 GHz magnetrons to heat alumina up to

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

I think this could work. The following issues must be solved or considered. 1) sealing without compression fittings - since the whole tube will be heated 2) the unfueled cell should have the same weight of nickel only leaving out the LAH On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Jed Rothwell

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Jed, but there's a problem, which are the inefficiencies of transforming microwaves into heat. Notice how irregular is heating food. How that would be measured, calibrated? It doesn't seem that easier.

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Turn the microwave oven on and off based on a gradually increasing minimum and maximum temperature setting of the reactors as they rotate on the turntable. The unfueled and fuel reactor will receive the same average input power over time. If the LENR

RE: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

From: Jack Cole Ø Ø Jones, It would be relatively easy to set a boil off calorimeter on top of one of those induction heating plates. That would certainly be a lot easier than anything else we've tried. Yes. “Easy” is good when we desire to get decent data coming in from many

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Getting the power into the load is the key to making one of these devices operate efficiently. If a small amount of the magnetic flux from the drive coil intercepts the fuel pellet then the reflected resistance appearing across the resonate load is going to be quite large. The voltage swing

RE: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Dave, Although I agree with what you say in principle about reflected resistance and leakage flux, the advantages of an efficient, inexpensive inductive power source (the cooktop) which is easily adaptable to boil-off calorimetry is so impressive that it could swing the decision the other

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Jones, It would be relatively easy to set a boil off calorimeter on top of one of those induction heating plates. That would certainly be a lot easier than anything else we've tried. Jack On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 7:55 PM Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Dave, Although I agree with

[Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

As Peter laments, there are two extremes in the recent LENR news. Thomas Clark's report lucidly states exactly what many of us having been saying for months about the flawed Lugano report. The good news in the provocative site: http://tet.in.ua/index.php/en/ Which is the Laboratory of

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

For the weekend inventor, high efficiency induction heating(93 %) is expensive. The cheap equipment is energy wasteful(40 %). But this efficiency question is only important in a COTS product. For the weekend experimenter, the energy wasted by the electronics can be ignored if the experiment is

RE: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Bob, There is a pretty good article on Wiki for induction cookers, but a look at the patents turns up more than meets the eye in a superficial account. The obvious part is that there is a Litz wire copper pancake coil inside the cooktop, driven by silicon to low to mid kilohertz range –

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Eddy currents work to produce heat in a metal or an metal oxide insolator on the micro level which still exists in a metal or oxide over it curie point. http://www.asminternational.org/documents/10192/3451119/ACFAA5C.pdf/98899692-8a69-446d-ac9a-38b8fab3a160 Hysteresis goes away beyond the Curie

RE: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

From: Axil Axil Ø Ø For the weekend inventor, high efficiency induction heating(93 %) is expensive. The cheap equipment is energy wasteful(40 %). Here is cooktop from Amazon which is 84% efficient for about $60.

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

Research has shown a relationship between the frequency of the alternating current and the heating depth of penetration: the higher the frequency, the shallower the heating in the part. Frequencies of 100 to 400 kHz produce relatively high-energy heat, ideal for quickly heating small parts or the

Re: [Vo]:The good, the bad and the ugly

The good, the bad and the uglyJones-- You are correct about induction heating. My youngest daughter recently bought a new induction heating stove. Nothing gets hot but the bottom of the pot, and the water in the pot starts boiling almost immediately. There is very fast and efficient energy