Re: [Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Can someone please describe how they are measuring output power? Where is the evidence of gain? It is basically a temperature comparison, which is not the best method, but the temperature difference is large. Look at the full sized slides here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/267085905/New-Result-on-Anomalous-Heat-Production-in-Hydrogen-loaded In Fig. 1, you see thermocouples T1, T2 and T3. T1 is sandwiched between the resistance heater and the cell. T2 is between the outer cell and the inner cell. T3 is inside, touching the powder. Unfortunately, T3 stopped working, so it is out of the picture. Evidence for excess heat is found because T2 is much hotter than T1. T2 is touching the resistance heater, which should be the hottest place in the system. Granted, not much hotter, because it is all metal, which conducts heat easily. However, T1 is not hotter. Jiang writes: The T2 temperature placed on the outer surface of the fuel cell is about 405 deg C greater than the T1 temperature, T1 is placed on the outer surface of the reaction chamber and near the heater. 405 deg C is a huge difference. Assuming the thermocouples are working correctly, this indicates that much of the heat originates from inside the cell rather than the resistance heater. It is hard to judge how much heat there is. The resistance heater supplies 780 W. T2 is a K-type thermocouple that maxes out at 1372 deg C. The temperature might have been higher than that. Figure 7b shows the T2 reaching it is maximum reading and then making a straight line. I think it would be difficult to estimate power, but on the other hand I think it is clear that much of the heat originates from inside the cell. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
From: Jed Rothwell Can someone please describe how they are measuring output power? Where is the evidence of gain? * It is basically a temperature comparison, which is not the best method, but the temperature difference is large. “Not the best method”? Without proper calibration, this is not a method at all. Even with calibration, it is considered sub-standard. 1) Where is the calibration ? 2) Type K is a general purpose thermocouple which may be used up to 1260 °C in an inert atmosphere. In oxidizing atmospheres the safe limit is 800 °C. Type K should never have been used in air (or hydrogen) above 800 °C. 3) One thermocouple failed prematurely, which can be expected when operating in air, and this implies the others are compromised. 4) Without proper working thermocouples, and without proper calibration, this report should never have been published. Jiang has a nice looking setup here, so how hard would it have been to do it right? * * JR: 405 deg C is a huge difference. Yes, but it is proof of nothing other than an inverted temperature profile. * Assuming the thermocouples are working correctly, this indicates that much of the heat originates from inside the cell rather than the resistance heater. It is hard to judge how much heat there is. Yes, it does look like heat originates inside the cell but without calorimetry, we have no proof of anything other than an inverted temperature profile – for which there is the mundane explanation. Most of us want to believe that an inverted temperature profile means net gain, but that is not necessarily true. When hydrogen expands, such as when it is released from a compound like LAH – it HEATS up, instead of cools down. This is because of the low inversion temperature of hydrogen. This heating factor can add heat to the inside of the cell, which is chemical in nature. If and when calorimetry proves there is gain above chemical, then we can eliminate the inversion temperature of hydrogen as contributory BUT NOT BEFORE. In short – some of all of the temperature difference here can be explained as the heating effect of hydrogen being released from LAH – and only calorimetry will prove otherwise.
Re: [Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
Type B thermocouples are expensive; even for fine wire, short, uninsulated couples, because they are made from platinum. They may be 10x more expensive than type-K and extension wires are just as expensive. Additionally the signal level is smaller with type-B which means more noise in the measurement. On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: a.ashfield a.ashfi...@verizon.net wrote: Beats me why they don't use type S or type B thermocouples that are common in the glass industry. That probably would be better. You should suggest it to Jiang. (His e-mail in the slides. He is a good guy.) The K-type thermocouple maxed out. They have to replace the inner thermocouple (T3) in any case. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:a turning point in the history of Parkhomov replications
I was starting to understand what is the moon when they pulled the ladder... 2015-05-30 18:07 GMT+02:00 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: Dear Alain, I have already noticed your creative metaphor. I was already here downstairs at the Sputnik Event. Peter On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 6:43 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: Chinese Sputnik says bip bip bip 2015-05-30 16:17 GMT+02:00 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: Or two turning points, both in the good direction? See: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2015/05/good-news-from-china-and-very-hopefully.html I know positive events/changes must come. Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:MFMP in replication battle/siege again!
Fran, On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 6:17 AM, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roarty@lmco .com wrote: Alberto, the series current is constant thru both but the loaded reactor heating coil becomes shunted by the plasma environment . E^2/R is going to be different and the power distribution will be different If so (I can't see how a plasma environment coming from the fuel would reach the coil - it would need to be a very powerful plasma environment), we have a powerful effect that lasts many hours more than any chemical reaction could explain. Again we have proof of LENR. – I am sure they are aware of this and they may be on to something but I have to disagree with the premise you are describing below – the temp delta can’t be directly compared because power does not divide equally. I beg to disagree. I can't see any explanation for the temperature difference except thermocouple failure, which can be ruled out by cooling down the reactors - the temperature should go back to be about the same in both. We may be seeing hard proof of LERN right in front of our eyes (OK, via Internet, and right in front of our eyes). Alberto.
Re: [Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
a.ashfield a.ashfi...@verizon.net wrote: Beats me why they don't use type S or type B thermocouples that are common in the glass industry. That probably would be better. You should suggest it to Jiang. (His e-mail in the slides. He is a good guy.) The K-type thermocouple maxed out. They have to replace the inner thermocouple (T3) in any case. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:a turning point in the history of Parkhomov replications
The MFMP data is really compelling. As the temperature rises; as the internal pressure drops, the difference between the fueled cell and the control gets wider. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/15ODbN9Oq6Pjyp9A61hdX0-fBJIXBBKMk7Ei06PzTc-Q/htmlview?sle=true#gid=1291075296 Craig On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: I was starting to understand what is the moon when they pulled the ladder... 2015-05-30 18:07 GMT+02:00 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: Dear Alain, I have already noticed your creative metaphor. I was already here downstairs at the Sputnik Event. Peter On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 6:43 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: Chinese Sputnik says bip bip bip 2015-05-30 16:17 GMT+02:00 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: Or two turning points, both in the good direction? See: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2015/05/good-news-from-china-and-very-hopefully.html I know positive events/changes must come. Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: There is a successful reproduction of a test yesterday by MFMP. Here are spreadsheets showing the MFMP results from May 28, 2015: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ODbN9Oq6Pjyp9A61hdX0-fBJIXBBKMk7Ei06PzTc-Q/htmlview?sle=true#
Re: [Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
Oops. I should have said: Evidence for excess heat is found because T2 is much hotter than T1. *T1 is touching the resistance heater*, which should be the hottest place in the system. Heat escapes by various paths, but no matter how complicated those paths are, I am pretty sure that with no reaction in the cell, a thermocouple touching the electric heater should be the hottest in the system. All the heat originates there. Every other spot in the cell has to be cooler than that. Just because the cell core is hotter, that does not prove it is producing cold fusion heat. It might be a chemical reaction. But Jiang says the reaction continues for such a long time that is ruled out: The calculated energy density is 4 orders of magnitude greater than the value of gasoline. Therefore, the origin of excess heat cannot be explained by any chemical energy. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
I skimmed through it, one thing that struck me was that they hit 1372°C for 10 minutes. I have serious doubts that their stainless steel vessel could have survived such a temperature (barely bellow melting) - which makes me suspicious of an error somewhere, this is above where k-type thermocouples would typically be expected to be accurate or reliable. Also melting point depression would have melted nickel powder at such temps destroying (what I thought was important) nickel surface morphology. They seem to have good resources so hoping they do better calorimetry in future. On 31 May 2015 at 04:19, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com wrote: Type B thermocouples are expensive; even for fine wire, short, uninsulated couples, because they are made from platinum. They may be 10x more expensive than type-K and extension wires are just as expensive. Additionally the signal level is smaller with type-B which means more noise in the measurement. On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: a.ashfield a.ashfi...@verizon.net wrote: Beats me why they don't use type S or type B thermocouples that are common in the glass industry. That probably would be better. You should suggest it to Jiang. (His e-mail in the slides. He is a good guy.) The K-type thermocouple maxed out. They have to replace the inner thermocouple (T3) in any case. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Ø JR: 405 deg C is a huge difference. Yes, but it is proof of nothing other than an inverted temperature profile. Assuming the temperature difference is real, and not an instrument artifact, it is proof that a great deal of heat originated from inside the reactor, and not from the heater. How much is difficult to say, but I agree with Jiang that by any reasonable estimate it would be more than a chemical reaction can produce. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:MFMP in replication battle/siege again!
MFMP is performing a very interesting live experiment now. The first that I know of in LENR that test for excess heat with a null hypothesis: they are running a loaded reactor in series with a empty reactor and the loaded reactor is tens of degrees Celsius hotter than the empty one (very good signal to noise ratio). In a few more hours there will be no possible chemical explanation for the excess heat. If, after cool down, the temperature difference becomes negligible again (which will basically rule out measurement error), we have a very convincing scientific prof of LENR. This experimental setup is way better than any Rossi's or Parkhomov's setup so far. Alberto. On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Friends, It just started: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2015/05/mfmp-heat-and-conquer-weird-but.html All the best to MFMP! A lot of excess heat! Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
[Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
See: “New Result of Anomalous Heat Production in Hydrogen-loaded Metals at High Temperature” New Report by Songsheng Jiang of the China Institute of Atomic Energy (CIAE) http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/1706-%E2%80%9CNew-Result-of-Anomalous-Heat-Production-in-Hydrogen-loaded-Metals-at-High-Tempe/
Re: [Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
There is a successful reproduction of a test yesterday by MFMP.
Re: [Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
The slides are here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/267085905/New-Result-on-Anomalous-Heat-Production-in-Hydrogen-loaded Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: There is a successful reproduction of a test yesterday by MFMP. Yes. Jiang's test was on May 4 at the China Institute of Atomic Energy, Beijing, China. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:MFMP in replication battle/siege again!
Alberto, the series current is constant thru both but the loaded reactor heating coil becomes shunted by the plasma environment . E^2/R is going to be different and the power distribution will be different – I am sure they are aware of this and they may be on to something but I have to disagree with the premise you are describing below – the temp delta can’t be directly compared because power does not divide equally. Fran From: Alberto De Souza [mailto:alberto.investi...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2015 4:00 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Arik El Boher; Bo Hoistadt; Brian Ahern; CMNS; Dagmar Kuhn; David Daggett; doug marker; Dr. Braun Tibor; eCatNews; Gabriel Moagar-Poladian; Gary; Haiko Lietz; jeff aries; Lewan Mats; Mark Tsirlin; Nicolaie N. Vlad; Peter Bjorkbom; Peter Mobberley; Pierre Clauzon; Roberto Germano; Roy Virgilio; Steve Katinski; Sunwon Park; Valerio Ciampoli; vlad Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:MFMP in replication battle/siege again! MFMP is performing a very interesting live experiment now. The first that I know of in LENR that test for excess heat with a null hypothesis: they are running a loaded reactor in series with a empty reactor and the loaded reactor is tens of degrees Celsius hotter than the empty one (very good signal to noise ratio). In a few more hours there will be no possible chemical explanation for the excess heat. If, after cool down, the temperature difference becomes negligible again (which will basically rule out measurement error), we have a very convincing scientific prof of LENR. This experimental setup is way better than any Rossi's or Parkhomov's setup so far. Alberto. On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.commailto:peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Friends, It just started: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2015/05/mfmp-heat-and-conquer-weird-but.html All the best to MFMP! A lot of excess heat! Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
RE: [Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
Can someone please describe how they are measuring output power? Where is the evidence of gain? Did they leave out some of the text? From: Jed Rothwell The slides are here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/267085905/New-Result-on-Anomalous-Heat-Production-in-Hydrogen-loaded
[Vo]:a turning point in the history of Parkhomov replications
Or two turning points, both in the good direction? See: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2015/05/good-news-from-china-and-very-hopefully.html I know positive events/changes must come. Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
RE: [Vo]:Jiang reports successful Lugano replication
Beats me why they don't use type S or type B thermocouples that are common in the glass industry.
Re: [Vo]:a turning point in the history of Parkhomov replications
Chinese Sputnik says bip bip bip 2015-05-30 16:17 GMT+02:00 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: Or two turning points, both in the good direction? See: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2015/05/good-news-from-china-and-very-hopefully.html I know positive events/changes must come. Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:a turning point in the history of Parkhomov replications
Dear Alain, I have already noticed your creative metaphor. I was already here downstairs at the Sputnik Event. Peter On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 6:43 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: Chinese Sputnik says bip bip bip 2015-05-30 16:17 GMT+02:00 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com: Or two turning points, both in the good direction? See: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2015/05/good-news-from-china-and-very-hopefully.html I know positive events/changes must come. Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
