Re: [Vo]:A step towards LENR commercialization ?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 20 May 2022 13:22:05 + (UTC): Hi, [snip] >Elon Musk has a strong and important opinion on using hydrogen as a way to >store green (wind) energy >"The most dumb thing" > >https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/12/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-dismisses-hydrogen-as-tool-for-energy-storage.html ...and this from the man wasting Lithium batteries on stationary energy storage. >However, Musk's starting assumptions could be wrong - > >... if that is the energy content of the stored gas is greater than the >published value > >... but what about 1.5 times the accepted value ? His assumptions could be wrong, even without that. For stationary storage, large containment vessels are not really a problem. Furthermore, there are new and much more efficient means of electrolysis being developed. However I agree that storing liquid Hydrogen is not the way to go. If no one clicked on ads companies would stop paying for them. :)
Re: [Vo]:A step towards LENR commercialization ?
Elon Musk has a strong and important opinion on using hydrogen as a way to store green (wind) energy "The most dumb thing" https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/12/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-dismisses-hydrogen-as-tool-for-energy-storage.html However, Musk's starting assumptions could be wrong - ... if that is the energy content of the stored gas is greater than the published value ... but what about 1.5 times the accepted value ?
Re: [Vo]:A step towards LENR commercialization ?
Robin wrote: > However, for > >large scale storage, hydrogen may have an edge. I wouldn't know about > that. > > I think it would, because the fuel/electrolysis cell itself is of fixed > size, and hence cost, whereas the cost of > hydrogen storage in a tank decreases per unit volume, with the size of the > tank. This is not true of batteries. > That's a good point. It resembles pumped storage with a large lake upstream. You can store as much as you like, with no increased cost per megawatt-hour for additional storage. (I guess if they had to compress the hydrogen gas in a storage tank, that might start costing more as the system approached capacity.) Speaking of wind power, they are building a GIGANTIC wind farm in the North Sea: https://doggerbank.com/ Here is an interesting document about the potential of offshore wind: https://www.iea.org/reports/offshore-wind-outlook-2019 Quote: ". . . offshore wind has the potential to generate more than 420 000 TWh per year worldwide. This is more than 18 times global electricity demand today."
Re: [Vo]:A step towards LENR commercialization ?
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 19 May 2022 17:39:02 -0400: Hi, [snip] >Generating hydrogen with wind turbines is a way to store the energy. That >is needed because wind power does not come on demand. It may be that >battery storage is now more economical than storing hydrogen. However, for >large scale storage, hydrogen may have an edge. I wouldn't know about that. I think it would, because the fuel/electrolysis cell itself is of fixed size, and hence cost, whereas the cost of hydrogen storage in a tank decreases per unit volume, with the size of the tank. This is not true of batteries. The cost of the tank is proportional to the surface area, which doesn't increase as fast as the volume. i.e. for a spherical tank, the ratio of volume to surface area is (4/3*Pi*r^3)/(4*Pi*r^2) = r/3, so the larger the radius, the larger the ratio, and the cost of storage per unit volume decreases. In a rechargeable battery the mobile ion (or it's associated atom) has to be stored in one of the electrodes. In a fuelcell, both gasses can be removed, Oxygen vented to the atmosphere, Hydrogen stored in a tank. If no one clicked on ads companies would stop paying for them. :)
Re: [Vo]:A step towards LENR commercialization ?
Jones Beene wrote: That is to say - if LENR is indeed real and robust - then it is very likely > that splitting water using catalysis, on a large scale will uncover the > extent of LENR utility as a base technology. > Why? What would be the point of splitting water if you have LENR? What would you use the hydrogen for? The only use for hydrogen is to generate energy, with a fuel cell or combustion. If you have LENR you use it to generate energy directly. Generating hydrogen with wind turbines is a way to store the energy. That is needed because wind power does not come on demand. It may be that battery storage is now more economical than storing hydrogen. However, for large scale storage, hydrogen may have an edge. I wouldn't know about that.
[Vo]:A step towards LENR commercialization ?
This mega-project - which is to split water on a massive scale using green energy (wind) - makes almost no economic sense to many observers of alternative energy ... especially not to Elon Musk - who thinks battery storage makes more sense. https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/first-ever-gigawatt-scale-electrolyser-order-confirmed-for-offshore-wind-powered-green-hydrogen-project/2-1-1220683 However, the underlying technology should have one major (hidden) feature -- which could not be easily funded on its own due to 'bad press' - which is to fully characterize and monetize LENR. Don't mention cold fusion if you want funding, or so it seems. That is to say - if LENR is indeed real and robust - then it is very likely that splitting water using catalysis, on a large scale will uncover the extent of LENR utility as a base technology. Curiously - one potential impediment in this story is the element iridium. As it turns out, splitting water efficiently is most efficien with iridium anodes, and that is problematic. More on iridium later.
