Re: [webkit-dev] Terminology: Could we change 'roll out' to 'roll back'?

[Alexey Proskuryakov]

> 6 марта 2020 г., в 18:29, Ryosuke Niwa  написал(а):
> 
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 6:15 PM Kirsling, Ross  wrote:
>> 
>> Late on Friday seems like a good time for a terminological debate (), so I’d 
>> like to propose we revisit one of the strangest items of WebKit-specific 
>> terminology: the phrase ‘roll out’.
>> 
>> In our industry, the typical meaning of the phrase ‘roll out’ is, of course, 
>> ‘deploy’ or ‘launch’; this corresponds with the colloquial usage of ‘roll 
>> out’ to mean ‘depart (for a destination)’. In WebKit, we use ‘roll out’ to 
>> mean the exact opposite, ‘revert’ or ‘roll back’.
> 
> I think the ship has sailed on this one. People who have been working
> on the WebKit project for long enough are so used to the phrase
> "rollout a patch" that it's gonna be tricky to change the terminology.
> Having said that, I'd much prefer the term "revert" over "rollout" or
> "rollback".

I've been using "roll back" lately, but "revert" seems perfectly fine.

- Alexey

> It's also the term git uses.
>> This term is confusing enough for native English speakers outside our 
>> community, let alone non-natives (since phrasal verbs are notoriously tricky 
>> as it is).
> 
> As a non-native speaker myself, I never find this term confusing
> because I have no mental model of what "rollout" or "rollback" means.
> However, I find those two terms infinitely more confusing than the
> very direct "revert".
> 
> - R. Niwa
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Re: [webkit-dev] Terminology: Could we change 'roll out' to 'roll back'?

[Konstantin Tokarev]

07.03.2020, 05:41, "Kirsling, Ross" :
> I'd be thrilled for us to use 'revert'.
> Somehow I'd convinced myself that it'd be easier to ask for this if we kept 
> the 'roll' part, but I'm not really sure why I thought so.

On the negative side, it won't be possible anymore to say that someone is on a 
roll when they revert several patches in a row :)

>
> Of course, it's fine for folks to continue to _say_ 'roll out' due to habit; 
> I just think it would be great if our automated 'rollouts' turned into 
> automated 'reverts' instead.
>
> Ross
>
> On 3/6/20, 6:31 PM, "Ryosuke Niwa"  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 6:15 PM Kirsling, Ross  
> wrote:
> >
> > Late on Friday seems like a good time for a terminological debate (), 
> so I’d like to propose we revisit one of the strangest items of 
> WebKit-specific terminology: the phrase ‘roll out’.
> >
> > In our industry, the typical meaning of the phrase ‘roll out’ is, of 
> course, ‘deploy’ or ‘launch’; this corresponds with the colloquial usage of 
> ‘roll out’ to mean ‘depart (for a destination)’. In WebKit, we use ‘roll out’ 
> to mean the exact opposite, ‘revert’ or ‘roll back’.
>
> I think the ship has sailed on this one. People who have been working
> on the WebKit project for long enough are so used to the phrase
> "rollout a patch" that it's gonna be tricky to change the terminology.
> Having said that, I'd much prefer the term "revert" over "rollout" or
> "rollback". It's also the term git uses.
>
> > This term is confusing enough for native English speakers outside our 
> community, let alone non-natives (since phrasal verbs are notoriously tricky 
> as it is).
>
> As a non-native speaker myself, I never find this term confusing
> because I have no mental model of what "rollout" or "rollback" means.
> However, I find those two terms infinitely more confusing than the
> very direct "revert".
>
> - R. Niwa
>
> ___
> webkit-dev mailing list
> webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
> https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev

-- 
Regards,
Konstantin

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Re: [webkit-dev] Terminology: Could we change 'roll out' to 'roll back'?

[Maciej Stachowiak]

I agree this usage of “roll out” is potentially confusing.

I think people say “roll out” for the symmetry to “check in”. It also creates 
the convenient term “roll back in” for when a rollout is undone.

Personally, I think we should say “revert” and avoid use of roll-phrases 
entirely. “unrevert” isn’t quite as natural as “roll back in”, but it’s good 
enough. Or you could say “re-land”.

Regards,
Maciej

> On Mar 6, 2020, at 6:14 PM, Kirsling, Ross  wrote:
> 
> Greetings WebKittens,
>  
> Late on Friday seems like a good time for a terminological debate (), so I’d 
> like to propose we revisit one of the strangest items of WebKit-specific 
> terminology: the phrase ‘roll out’.
>  
> In our industry, the typical meaning of the phrase ‘roll out’ is, of course, 
> ‘deploy’ or ‘launch’; this corresponds with the colloquial usage of ‘roll 
> out’ to mean ‘depart (for a destination)’. In WebKit, we use ‘roll out’ to 
> mean the exact opposite, ‘revert’ or ‘roll back’.
>  
> In terms of metaphors: The typical meaning of ‘roll out’ is synonymous with 
> ‘roll forward’, hence the opposite being ‘roll back’. The way that I came to 
> explain to myself and others what WebKit means by ‘roll out’ is that it’s 
> movement along the other axis. There is a tree (SVN trunk) which is built up 
> from disc-shaped slices (revisions), and these slices are rolled sideways in 
> and out of the tree. Needless to say, this is not obvious to a newcomer, and 
> it’s not even accurate to how SVN works—rollouts don’t remove an old 
> revision, they add a new revision to perform the revert!
>  
> This term is confusing enough for native English speakers outside our 
> community, let alone non-natives (since phrasal verbs are notoriously tricky 
> as it is). Having heard complaints about this from people in both of these 
> groups within the last few weeks, I hereby propose that we start using ‘roll 
> back’ instead. Given the string similarity between the two, I hope that this 
> will be a relatively easy change to enact, if folks are onboard with it.
>  
> Thanks for your consideration!
>  
> Ross
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> 
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Re: [webkit-dev] Terminology: Could we change 'roll out' to 'roll back'?

[Kirsling, Ross]

I'd be thrilled for us to use 'revert'.
Somehow I'd convinced myself that it'd be easier to ask for this if we kept the 
'roll' part, but I'm not really sure why I thought so.

Of course, it's fine for folks to continue to _say_ 'roll out' due to habit; I 
just think it would be great if our automated 'rollouts' turned into automated 
'reverts' instead.

Ross

On 3/6/20, 6:31 PM, "Ryosuke Niwa"  wrote:

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 6:15 PM Kirsling, Ross  
wrote:
>
> Late on Friday seems like a good time for a terminological debate (), so 
I’d like to propose we revisit one of the strangest items of WebKit-specific 
terminology: the phrase ‘roll out’.
>
> In our industry, the typical meaning of the phrase ‘roll out’ is, of 
course, ‘deploy’ or ‘launch’; this corresponds with the colloquial usage of 
‘roll out’ to mean ‘depart (for a destination)’. In WebKit, we use ‘roll out’ 
to mean the exact opposite, ‘revert’ or ‘roll back’.

I think the ship has sailed on this one. People who have been working
on the WebKit project for long enough are so used to the phrase
"rollout a patch" that it's gonna be tricky to change the terminology.
Having said that, I'd much prefer the term "revert" over "rollout" or
"rollback". It's also the term git uses.

> This term is confusing enough for native English speakers outside our 
community, let alone non-natives (since phrasal verbs are notoriously tricky as 
it is).

As a non-native speaker myself, I never find this term confusing
because I have no mental model of what "rollout" or "rollback" means.
However, I find those two terms infinitely more confusing than the
very direct "revert".

- R. Niwa


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Re: [webkit-dev] Terminology: Could we change 'roll out' to 'roll back'?

[Ryosuke Niwa]

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 6:15 PM Kirsling, Ross  wrote:
>
> Late on Friday seems like a good time for a terminological debate (), so I’d 
> like to propose we revisit one of the strangest items of WebKit-specific 
> terminology: the phrase ‘roll out’.
>
> In our industry, the typical meaning of the phrase ‘roll out’ is, of course, 
> ‘deploy’ or ‘launch’; this corresponds with the colloquial usage of ‘roll 
> out’ to mean ‘depart (for a destination)’. In WebKit, we use ‘roll out’ to 
> mean the exact opposite, ‘revert’ or ‘roll back’.

I think the ship has sailed on this one. People who have been working
on the WebKit project for long enough are so used to the phrase
"rollout a patch" that it's gonna be tricky to change the terminology.
Having said that, I'd much prefer the term "revert" over "rollout" or
"rollback". It's also the term git uses.

> This term is confusing enough for native English speakers outside our 
> community, let alone non-natives (since phrasal verbs are notoriously tricky 
> as it is).

As a non-native speaker myself, I never find this term confusing
because I have no mental model of what "rollout" or "rollback" means.
However, I find those two terms infinitely more confusing than the
very direct "revert".

- R. Niwa
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[webkit-dev] Terminology: Could we change 'roll out' to 'roll back'?

[Kirsling, Ross]

Greetings WebKittens,

Late on Friday seems like a good time for a terminological debate (), so I’d 
like to propose we revisit one of the strangest items of WebKit-specific 
terminology: the phrase ‘roll out’.

In our industry, the typical meaning of the phrase ‘roll out’ is, of course, 
‘deploy’ or ‘launch’; this corresponds with the colloquial usage of ‘roll out’ 
to mean ‘depart (for a destination)’. In WebKit, we use ‘roll out’ to mean the 
exact opposite, ‘revert’ or ‘roll back’.

In terms of metaphors: The typical meaning of ‘roll out’ is synonymous with 
‘roll forward’, hence the opposite being ‘roll back’. The way that I came to 
explain to myself and others what WebKit means by ‘roll out’ is that it’s 
movement along the other axis. There is a tree (SVN trunk) which is built up 
from disc-shaped slices (revisions), and these slices are rolled sideways in 
and out of the tree. Needless to say, this is not obvious to a newcomer, and 
it’s not even accurate to how SVN works—rollouts don’t remove an old revision, 
they add a new revision to perform the revert!

This term is confusing enough for native English speakers outside our 
community, let alone non-natives (since phrasal verbs are notoriously tricky as 
it is). Having heard complaints about this from people in both of these groups 
within the last few weeks, I hereby propose that we start using ‘roll back’ 
instead. Given the string similarity between the two, I hope that this will be 
a relatively easy change to enact, if folks are onboard with it.

Thanks for your consideration!

Ross
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