Shannon wrote:
However to be on par with RDFa this proposal simply needs a CSS-like
@import statement or vocabulary property and possibly an inline
attribute as Silvia suggested.
link rel=vocabulary
href=http://some.official.vocabulary/1.1/metadata.cm;
Not workable, as this in the HEAD of
Ian Hickson wrote:
Clearly, and as the voice-over states, the site needs embedded metadata
that easily connects what the user is pointing to to the structured
data required for mapping.
Since Craigslist doesn't have structured data now, that seems like a
verifiably false claim. :-)
Did
(reposting a private email to the list...)
Manu Sporny wrote:
...
The syntax document explains each bullet point more clearly in the
Introduction section[1].
In other words,
1) CURIEs always map to a IRI.
2) They don't have any constraints on the reference portion (the part
after the
I consider the following to be analogous:
Presentation / Semantics / Behaviour
rel=stylesheet / rel=transformation / script src=...
style=.../ RDFa / on*=...
That is, if we consider an external stylesheet linked to with
rel=stylesheet as effectively being a set of
On Aug 27, 2008, at 16:33, Smylers wrote:
So that is one disadvantage of URIs: they are long. In fact they
are so
long that people have gone to the bother of inventing additional
syntax
to avoid having to write them out.
Moreover, having to look up the URIs is a major pain when writing
Henri Sivonen wrote:
On Aug 27, 2008, at 16:33, Smylers wrote:
So that is one disadvantage of URIs: they are long. In fact they are so
long that people have gone to the bother of inventing additional syntax
to avoid having to write them out.
Moreover, having to look up the URIs is a major
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Ben Adida wrote:
Ian Hickson wrote:
Clearly, and as the voice-over states, the site needs embedded
metadata that easily connects what the user is pointing to to the
structured data required for mapping.
Since Craigslist doesn't have structured data now, that
On Aug 28, 2008, at 05:59, Ben Adida wrote:
Same goes with MySpace widgets. Paste one thing, get the widget. Who's
going to go paste two things in two different places? It's really
important to make HTML the carrier of this information.
It seems to me that this line of reasoning should lead
On Aug 28, 2008, at 12:18, Julian Reschke wrote:
Henri Sivonen wrote:
On Aug 27, 2008, at 16:33, Smylers wrote:
So that is one disadvantage of URIs: they are long. In fact they
are so
long that people have gone to the bother of inventing additional
syntax
to avoid having to write them
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
* I almost laughed when I saw the irrelevant attribute. First,
because that's a word that web developers throw around a lot and second
because I can't imagine ever using it. The spec says, When specified on
an element, it indicates that
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:00:09 +0200, Russell Leggett
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I actually think that using custom microformat-like conventions with
classes or tags is really not as robust a solution as what is being
attempted with RDFa (I honestly did not know much about RDFa before this
I think some of you got my point quite better than others; and maybe I
should clarify the idea. I see no issue with having some attributes to
embed semantics inline within the HTML, the same way we have style to
embed presentation. The issue is about *forcing* these semantics,
which are not the
On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 8:17 PM, Ian Hickson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Ben Adida wrote:
Consider specifically the Craigslist example, where the user selects a
few of the apartments and says map these.
Clearly, and as the voice-over states, the site needs embedded metadata
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 2:28 AM, Ian Hickson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
Site-specific hacks don't scale to the Web. A solution that scales will
require a single parser, not site-specific parsers (though site-specific
parsers will likely be a transition path.)
To scale to the whole Web, the
On Aug 28, 2008, at 15:00, Russell Leggett wrote:
I actually think that using custom microformat-like conventions with
classes or tags is really not as robust a solution as what is being
attempted with RDFa (I honestly did not know much about RDFa before
this conversation). However, while
Henri Sivonen wrote:
On Aug 28, 2008, at 15:00, Russell Leggett wrote:
I actually think that using custom microformat-like conventions with
classes or tags is really not as robust a solution as what is being
attempted with RDFa (I honestly did not know much about RDFa before
this
James Graham wrote:
As Anne and Julian have pointed out, that's not a use of data-*
attributes permitted by the spec.
FWIW I think we have a problem in that multiple independent people have
seen data-* and assumed they are for externally readable metadata. If
Right. That is a problem.
the
Eduard Pascual [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
style and script are used to define document-wide styles and
behaviors. Once again, we lack something to achieve this for
semantics.
But we do have such a tool - GRDDL. GRDDL provides a method to
extract semantics from existing HTML structures (e.g.
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 7:13 AM, Eduard Pascual [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
I think some of you got my point quite better than others; and maybe I
should clarify the idea. I see no issue with having some attributes to
embed semantics inline within the HTML, the same way we have style to
embed
javascript:goBack(); is a labeled statement in JavaScript and the label is
javascript. What purpose does it serve in your inline code?
SCRIPT[type=text/xml] can be used for semantics, including RDF.
Inline styles and inline event handlers belong to deprecated legacy syntax.
Inline styles were
I thought the standard mechanism for embedding contacts is
OBJECT[type=text/vcard].
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Prescod
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 2:51 PM
To: Ian Hickson
Cc: Ben Adida; WHAT-WG
Subject: Re: [whatwg]
An element can belong to multiple classes, some of them semantic and some
presentational (if you really have to). These usages are not mutually
exclusive.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Adida
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Kristof Zelechovski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
javascript:goBack(); is a labeled statement in JavaScript and the label
is
javascript. What purpose does it serve in your inline code?
SCRIPT[type=text/xml] can be used for semantics, including RDF.
Inline
Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
Those folks must *really* hate microformats, then, as they pack *all* of
their semantics into @class.
No, the conflict was about putting URIs and CURIEs into attributes that
were previously free-form and thus could cause confusion.
And it was a good argument, we are
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 11:24 AM, Ben Adida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
Those folks must *really* hate microformats, then, as they pack *all* of
their semantics into @class.
No, the conflict was about putting URIs and CURIEs into attributes that
were previously
Ian Hickson wrote:
Did you listen to the video? It clearly states that they wrote a
specific hack for Craigslist, but that they expect this to work more
generically.
Sure, I'm just debating needs. It is possible to do it without
structured data, indeed the flagship example here doesn't
Henri Sivonen wrote:
Same goes with MySpace widgets. Paste one thing, get the widget. Who's
going to go paste two things in two different places? It's really
important to make HTML the carrier of this information.
It seems to me that this line of reasoning should lead to using
identifiers
Henri Sivonen wrote:
Having
something-other-than-data-curie=dc:http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/;
How about
div prefix=dc:http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/;
h2 property=dc:titleA Fun Article/h2
by h3 property=dc:creatorBen Adida/h3
/div
?
This is one option we've been exploring for
Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
THIS. This was my unarticulable objection to RDFa. I understand that
carrying the data around as close to the relevant html as possible is
good, and making it possible to embed things like CC licenses with all
relevant metadata in a single copypaste operation is
Some comments:
The spec currently says:
Once the WorkerGlobalScope's closing flag is set to true, the queue must
discard anything else that would be added to it. Effectively, once the
closing flag is true, timers stop firing, notifications for all pending
asynchronous operations are dropped,
The proposition that classification should be used for presentation only is
definitely not sound. I agree you cannot make everybody happy - but that
does not mean you have to make all losers happy.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
The proposition that classification should be used for presentation only is
definitely not sound. I agree you cannot make everybody happy - but that
does not mean you have to make all losers happy.
Sadly, they were not tatooed loser when the working group discussed
Jonas Sicking wrote:
Some comments:
The spec currently says:
Once the WorkerGlobalScope's closing flag is set to true, the queue must
discard anything else that would be added to it. Effectively, once the
closing flag is true, timers stop firing, notifications for all pending
asynchronous
If the blog site allows users to use a nonstandard license, it should
support the metadata model you propose, i.e. it should provide a way to
inject that information in the HEAD. However, when I post to a public
forum, I have to obey the forum's rules, which include subscribing to their
license
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
If the blog site allows users to use a nonstandard license, it should
support the metadata model you propose, i.e. it should provide a way to
inject that information in the HEAD. However, when I post to a public
forum, I have to obey the forum's rules, which include
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Kristof Zelechovski
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
I am not opposing local metadata; I have already explained you can use the
SCRIPT element for the purpose. I only say that metadata should not be
inside content they describe in order to avoid circularity. This is a
It makes sense to exempt metadata from its own influence and putting it
somewhere else is the easy way to do it. Creating exemption rules is the
hard way. However, if you are able to produce a complete and tractable set
of rules, I shall be able to live with it. I am unable to imagine it, but
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
I am not opposing local metadata; I have already explained you can use the
SCRIPT element for the purpose. I only say that metadata should not be
inside content they describe in order to avoid circularity. This is a
philosophical objection, not a technical one.
There is a difference between the general possibility of making nonsense
statements and an invitation to make them. In my opinion, recommending
metadata about content within itself is such an invitation.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
There is a difference between the general possibility of making nonsense
statements and an invitation to make them. In my opinion, recommending
metadata about content within itself is such an invitation.
Where do you see an invitation that invites more circularity
Hello,
I can imagine instances where it would make sense to allow:
TH scope=TBODY
(or =THEAD/ TFOOT, for that matter)
before I expand on that, has anyone made similar suggestions previously,
or done any related work (I have searched, without success)? Or does
scope=ROWGROUP cover
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:51:35 +0200, Andy Mabbett
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello,
I can imagine instances where it would make sense to allow:
TH scope=TBODY
(or =THEAD/ TFOOT, for that matter)
before I expand on that, has anyone made similar suggestions previously,
or done any
While we are at that, why not resurrect semantic [profile] instead of adding
syntactic [prefix]?
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Manu Sporny
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:18 PM
To: whatwg@lists.whatwg.org
Subject: Re: [whatwg]
I have to repeat Ian's question now: what happens when the server with a
custom vocabulary definition goes down? Does it take a part of the semantic
Web down along with it?
Interestingly enough, ape-compatible operating systems (guess which) do not
provide any CURIEs (soft links)* for file
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
I think RDFa has already happened: you know what it is and how to use it.
Yes, you are correct - RDFa has, more or less, already happened. It will
be an official W3C standard in the next couple of months and will be
supported in XHTML1.1 and XHTML2. Some are currently
HTML5 is too crucial as a technology to allow arbitrary experimentation. I
would rather wait for a consistency checker to exist, at least approximately
and conceptually, before having alternate content streams in HTML. Maybe
that is just me.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 4:59 AM, Jonas Sicking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In general I think the three shutdown mechanisms that exist are somewhat
messy:
* Kill a worker
* Terminate a worker
* WorkerGlobalScope.close()
Also browser crash/power failure.
It really does simplify things if the
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
I have to repeat Ian's question now: what happens when the server with a
custom vocabulary definition goes down? Does it take a part of the semantic
Web down along with it?
If it's a popular vocabulary, it's probably been cached appropriately.
If it's an edge-case
Ian's question was about what happens when it goes down forever, or gets
taken over, intercepted, squatted, spoofed or redirected because of a
malicious DNS. I should have known better how to ask it. The browser cache
cannot handle these cases.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: Ben Adida
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
Ian's question was about what happens when it goes down forever, or gets
taken over, intercepted, squatted, spoofed or redirected because of a
malicious DNS.
Okay, let's get rid of a few cases. Malicious DNS will break
*everything* if you don't have DNSSEC. Google
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Kristof Zelechovski
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
Ian's question was about what happens when it goes down forever, or gets
taken over, intercepted, squatted, spoofed or redirected because of a
malicious DNS. I should have known better how to ask it. The browser
Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
Consider the question to be asked by me as well. A host of a popular
format forgets to maintain its registration and gets squatted by a
malicious person. They pick up another url to host their schema on, but
legacy pages are still pointing to the old url and now may have
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:29:22 +0200, Ben Adida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
HTML5 is too crucial as a technology to allow arbitrary experimentation.
Arbitrary? Plus, consider the risk to HTML5: nothing. Browsers don't
need to do anything (except make the attributes
Anne van Kesteren wrote:
FWIW, when considering language complexity, just considering whether it
impacts user agents seems naïve. Eg, it impacts people reading the
specification, people writing documentation, people writing books, etc.
Fair enough.
Doesn't SQL in the browser affect all of
Taking your argument to the extreme, the worst malicious DNS would be the
one that consistently returns NXDOMAIN. I am afraid this is not the case.
Targeted attacks are actually more harmful, as you have correctly pointed
out.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It seems you believe in code generators. I do not share your belief. A
comment Do not touch --- generated code means to me the formal language
used is at fault and that I should rather find another language to use.
(Unless we are talking about a secondary form, of course, but what is the
primary
Aaron Boodman wrote:
I encounter sites frequently that want to pop out part of their
application free of the page, into a smaller window. For example,
Pandora radio (http://pandora.com) does this. The player starts out
embedded in the normal content area, but users have the option to pop
it out
On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Jonas Sicking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think that example could be solved simpler actually. An audio element
can be moved between two documents without requiring any interference in its
functionality. So if pandora used an audio to play music they could easily
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:55:07 +0200, Ben Adida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Anne van Kesteren wrote:
FWIW, when considering language complexity, just considering whether it
impacts user agents seems naïve. Eg, it impacts people reading the
specification, people writing documentation, people writing
They want the xmlns declaration on a DIV provided by the wizard, not on the
HTML element.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anne van Kesteren
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 12:19 AM
To: Ben Adida
Cc: Kristof Zelechovski; 'Manu Sporny';
Anne van Kesteren wrote:
SQL actually doesn't affect the HTML5 language,
Isn't that nitpicking a bit? It's part of the feature-set that a browser
would have to implement, part of the books that have to be written,
etc..., right?
I don't really think it makes sense to compare that
feature to
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
It seems you believe in code generators. I do not share your belief.
Creative Commons, YouTube, Flickr, etc... a lot of sites generate a
chunk of HTML for you to paste within your site to gain a feature. This
is a model that seems to work pretty well.
A comment Do
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, Andy Mabbett wrote:
I can imagine instances where it would make sense to allow:
TH scope=TBODY
(or =THEAD/ TFOOT, for that matter)
before I expand on that, has anyone made similar suggestions previously,
or done any related work (I have searched, without
Silvia Pfeiffer wrote:
I am still struggling with the need for using URIs to address
resource properties rather than resources.
How do you differentiate Job Title from Book Title in a way that
scales to the web? You need unique identification, and a way to
explore more information about the
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
Manu Sporny wrote:
3. We needed a solution that would map cleanly to non-XML family
languages. In hindsight, we should have picked @prefix instead of
@xmlns to define prefixes, but that ended up going through. We're
looking at alternative mechanisms, such as
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
HTML5 is too crucial as a technology to allow arbitrary experimentation.
Please refrain from making wildly opinionated and loaded comments such
as this without logically backing up your argument Kristof. Many on this
list and off this list would view a number of HTML5
Anne van Kesteren wrote:
The idea and premise of RDF is sort of attractive (people being able to
do their own thing, unified data model, etc), though I agree with others
that the complexity (lengthy URIs, ***qname***/curie cruft) is an issue.
We do not use QName's in RDFa - there is not
Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
Ben Adida wrote:
Well, for one, if you've got prefixes, you just need to change where
your prefix points :) So that's kinda nice.
That's the issue. We're talking *legacy* pages, which means that
updates, even fairly easy ones, probably aren't going to
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
While Google owns the Web, it is not the core of the Web. If Google goes
down, Google users cannot use Google any more. Sure, there are quite a few
of them; but Google is a big fish accordingly.
On the other hand, if Verizon or InterNIC goes down, we have a
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