Riveting tale, chap. Can you provide proof?
Actually the burden of proof is on those who think that blockquote
has
some useful support.
No, that's not how burden of proof works. You made a claim regarding
blockquote, nils asked for proof. The onus is on you.
Thanks,
Ash
2012-02-12 8:36, Nils Dagsson Moskopp wrote:
Since in current usage, blockquote means just “indent” more often
than not, browsers and search engines should not and will not imply
any specific semantics for it. Thus it will be pointless to use it.
Riveting tale, chap. Can you provide proof?
Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fi schrieb am Sun, 12 Feb 2012
12:04:13 +0200:
2012-02-12 8:36, Nils Dagsson Moskopp wrote:
Since in current usage, blockquote means just “indent” more
often than not, browsers and search engines should not and will
not imply any specific semantics for
On Sun, 12 Feb 2012, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
2012-02-12 2:13, Ian Hickson wrote:
That's not to say that one day we won't provide an explicit way to
mark up attribution for blockquotes in markup, just that the desired
presentation isn't a relevant concern in doing so
The relationship
2012-02-12 19:54, Ian Hickson wrote:
The blockquote has been, and will be, rather pointless without markup
for “credits” (indication of author and source, which are normally
required by law).
What's the use case, other than presentation?
What’s the use case for markup for quotations in
Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fi schrieb am Sun, 12 Feb 2012
20:19:02 +0200:
[…]
The difference between blockquote and (for example) quotation as
quotation markup is that the latter has no burden of existing use for
other purposes.
By analogy, a completely new table element would also
2012-02-12 21:43, Nils Dagsson Moskopp wrote:
The difference between blockquote and (for example) quotation as
quotation markup is that the latter has no burden of existing use for
other purposes.
By analogy, a completely new table element would also be necessary.
There has been quite a
On Sun, 12 Feb 2012, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
2012-02-12 19:54, Ian Hickson wrote:
The blockquote has been, and will be, rather pointless without
markup for “credits” (indication of author and source, which are
normally required by law).
What's the use case, other than
2012-02-12 23:25, Ian Hickson wrote:
The use case for most of the semantic markup is jsut easier authoring
and maintenance, in particular for selectors in CSS.
If that’s the approach, and this reflects a consensus, shouldn’t this be
explained in the introductory material (which is now rather
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
2012-02-12 23:25, Ian Hickson wrote:
The use case for most of the semantic markup is just easier
authoring and maintenance, in particular for selectors in CSS.
If that’s the approach, and this reflects a consensus, shouldn’t
this be explained
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011, Oli Studholme wrote:
I�ve been thinking about this line in the blockquote spec:
�Content inside a blockquote must be quoted from another source�
Depending on how literally you read this, it makes the following
common quoting practices annoying or impossible:
1.
2012-02-12 2:13, Ian Hickson wrote:
That's not to say that one day we won't provide an explicit way to mark up
attribution for blockquotes in markup, just that the desired
presentation isn't a relevant concern in doing so
The relationship between a quotation and the indication of source is
Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fi schrieb am Sun, 12 Feb 2012
07:46:07 +0200:
The blockquote has been, and will be, rather pointless without
markup for “credits” (indication of author and source, which are
normally required by law).
Why do you hate the cite attribute?
[…]
Seldom does an
2012-02-12 8:36, Nils Dagsson Moskopp wrote:
Why do you hate the cite attribute?
I don’t; it’s just useless, and it does not in any way satisfy the
legal, moral, and scholarly requirements for specifying the source.
Seldom does an author wish to quote an entire section. It is not even
Ian Hickson writes:
On Thu, 14 Jul 2011, Kevin Marks wrote:
There is another common pattern, seen in blogging a lot, of putting
the citation at the top eg
As cite class=vcarda href=http://www.gyford.com/phil/;
class=url rel=acquaintance met colleagueabbr title=Phil Gyford
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 22:48, Tantek Çelik tan...@cs.stanford.edu wrote:
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 12:35, Karl Dubost ka...@opera.com wrote:
I like the pattern id/for pattern of forms. We could imagine
p
span for=quoteA class=authorSir John Typo/span
has written plenty of a wonderful thing
15.07.2011 19:56, Bjartur Thorlacius wrote:
On 7/15/11, Jukka K. Korpelajkorp...@cs.tut.fi wrote:
Should it? Even when the book has no URL? If you expect urn:isbn:… to
work anytime soon in any significant browser, you’re very optimistic.
Wikipedia and Amazon (among others) have all the
Le 15 juil. 2011 à 10:50, Jukka K. Korpela a écrit :
Should it? Even when the book has no URL? If you expect urn:isbn:… to work
anytime soon in any significant browser, you’re very optimistic.
in QuoteLink, I do a trick, eventually I should enable the provider of your
choice.
But basically
Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fi schrieb am Sun, 17 Jul 2011
17:09:54 +0300:
15.07.2011 19:56, Bjartur Thorlacius wrote:
[…]
But browsers need to be told that that number close to the quotation
is an ISBN.
The string “ISBN” is sufficient evidence of that.
Someone would need to
17.07.2011 18:07, Nils Dagsson Moskopp wrote:
But browsers need to be told that that number close to the quotation
is an ISBN.
The string “ISBN” is sufficient evidence of that.
Someone would need to standardize “ISBN sniffing behaviour” for UAs
then. Could you make a proposal?
I think it
Þann sun 17.júl 2011 18:36, skrifaði Jukka K. Korpela:
17.07.2011 18:07, Nils Dagsson Moskopp wrote:
I think it would be rather trivial. The string “ISBN” followed by
something that matches the syntax of ISBN numbers, perhaps allowing some
variation in punctuation, could be treated as an
18.07.2011 01:18, Bjartur Thorlacius wrote:
Titles of works are often more useful in the long run than URLs. URLs
change far too often when sites are revamped or for other reasons.
ISBNs are more useful in the long run than titles. Good titles get
reused far too often.
ISBNs have their uses
14.07.2011 16:10, Bjartur Thorlacius wrote:
Þann fim 14.júl 2011 11:09, skrifaði Jukka K. Korpela:
14.07.2011 13:49, Karl Dubost wrote:
blockquote cite=urn:isbn:978-2-07-07533-7
pSur un pétale de lotus, j'écrivis ces quelques vers :/p
p«qMême si l'on vient me chercherbr/
Comment, abandonnant
On 7/15/11, Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fi wrote:
14.07.2011 16:10, Bjartur Thorlacius wrote:
I don't think author names are allowed in cite in HTML 5.
They aren’t, but HTML5 linters (“validators”) won’t report the issue, as
they don’t understand the meanings of words.
That doesn't make
On 7/15/11, Jukka K. Korpela jkorp...@cs.tut.fi wrote:
Should it? Even when the book has no URL? If you expect urn:isbn:… to
work anytime soon in any significant browser, you’re very optimistic.
Wikipedia and Amazon (among others) have all the mechanisms already.
Such ISBN handlers could even
Hi Bjartur,
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Bjartur Thorlacius
svartma...@gmail.com wrote:
Þann þri 12.júl 2011 09:15, skrifaði Oli Studholme:
Datetimes will usually be presented in a localized format to humans.
I think at most user agents will offer users the option to localise
datetime
Le 8 juil. 2011 à 07:20, Jeremy Keith a écrit :
1) Oli has shown the real-world use cases for attribution *within*
blockquotes.
using that for years (almost every day), an example
http://www.la-grange.net/2011/06/05/fruit
blockquote cite=urn:isbn:978-2-07-07533-7
pSur un pétale de lotus,
14.07.2011 13:49, Karl Dubost wrote:
using that for years (almost every day), an example
http://www.la-grange.net/2011/06/05/fruit
blockquote cite=urn:isbn:978-2-07-07533-7
pSur un pétale de lotus, j'écrivis ces quelques vers :/p
p«qMême si l'on vient me chercherbr/
Comment,
Þann fim 14.júl 2011 09:38, skrifaði Oli Studholme:
in graphic design a footer contains supplementary information about
the content it follows. the spec initially disallowed ‘fat footers’,
but the naming and common usage would have led to people using them
for fat footers regardless of the spec.
Þann fim 14.júl 2011 11:09, skrifaði Jukka K. Korpela:
14.07.2011 13:49, Karl Dubost wrote:
blockquote cite=urn:isbn:978-2-07-07533-7
pSur un pétale de lotus, j'écrivis ces quelques vers :/p
p«qMême si l'on vient me chercherbr/
Comment, abandonnant la roséebr/
De pareil lotus,br/
There is another common pattern, seen in blogging a lot, of putting
the citation at the top eg
As cite class=vcarda href=http://www.gyford.com/phil/;
class=url rel=acquaintance met colleagueabbr title=Phil Gyford
class=fnPhil/abbr/a/cite wrote about the a
On 7/14/11, Kevin Marks kevinma...@gmail.com wrote:
There is another common pattern, seen in blogging a lot, of putting
the citation at the top eg
As cite class=vcarda href=http://www.gyford.com/phil/;
class=url rel=acquaintance met colleagueabbr title=Phil Gyford
class=fnPhil/abbr/a/cite
Le 14 juil. 2011 à 14:59, Kevin Marks a écrit :
If I was writing a detector for this pattern, a followed by a colon
and blockquote would do it pretty reliably...
yup unfortunately there are also many cases where you have more names in an
introducing paragraph. It is happening when I'm
In agreement with Jeremy, I too have found the blockquote/q cite
attribute to be nearly as ignored as the longdesc attribute, despite
having conducted talks and written tutorials about how to use the
cite= attribute (makes me think that the non-visible-effect-URL
attributes on elements should be
Le 14 juil. 2011 à 16:48, Tantek Çelik a écrit :
cite= attribute (makes me think that the non-visible-effect-URL
attributes on elements
Yup. :) and there are ways to improve what the browser doesn't do :)
(though I really think the browser should)
I made a prototype for this
Bjartur wrote:
I'd like to reemphasize that:
*unsupported by user agents*
So you're saying that because attributes aren't rendered by default, user
agents will ignore them and thus we should not use them?
It's not a matter of should not. Because user agents ignore them, we *do not*
use
Hi Bjartur,
Firstly thank you (and you Jeremy!) for your input. This thread will
help decide how the blockquote spec changes to accommodate the use
cases I outlined, so the more input the better.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Bjartur Thorlacius
svartma...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not arguing
Þann þri 12.júl 2011 09:15, skrifaði Oli Studholme:
Firstly thank you (and you Jeremy!) for your input. This thread will
help decide how the blockquote spec changes to accommodate the use
cases I outlined, so the more input the better.
Thank you for your commentary, it is most appreciated.
On 7/8/11, Jeremy Keith jer...@adactio.com wrote:
Bjartur wrote:
Citation will most likely contain the cited resource (@cite), the title
of the cited resource (@title) and the date and optionally time of the
quote (@datetime?).
All three of which are invisible and so do not match the use
Oli wrote:
I’ve outlined the problem and some potential solutions (with their
pros and cons) in:
http://oli.jp/2011/blockquote/
Excellent work, IMHO. I've added my own little +1 here:
http://adactio.com/journal/4675/
Oli continues:
I think the blockquote spec should be changed to allow the
Þann fös 8.júl 2011 11:20, skrifaði Jeremy Keith:
3) The solution that Oli has proposed (allowing footer within
blockquote to include non-quoted information) is an elegant one, in
my opinion. I can think of some solutions that would involve putting
the attribution data outside the blockquote
Bjartur wrote:
Citation will most likely contain the cited resource (@cite), the title
of the cited resource (@title) and the date and optionally time of the
quote (@datetime?).
All three of which are invisible and so do not match the use cases that Oli has
outlined.
At least @title has a
Hi All,
I’ve been thinking about this line in the blockquote spec:
“Content inside a blockquote must be quoted from another source”
Depending on how literally you read this, it makes the following
common quoting practices annoying or impossible:
1. Typographically accepted changes to a quote,
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