Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
I'd suspect that *all* examples where placeholder text is used (definitely
all the examples I know of personally) are most semantically served by a
label with the text. Iirc, I once saw a nice javascript solution that
mutated the DOM to remove the label and use its text
Am Sonntag, den 05.10.2008, 12:20 -0700 schrieb Garrett Smith:
But what if the designer wants to use an image?
input type=search placeholder=ybang.gif
Would display the text:
bang.gif
- not the binary resource of the image. In some cases, designers or
marketing will want an image
Am Sonntag, den 05.10.2008, 22:13 +0200 schrieb Nils Dagsson Moskopp:
Am Sonntag, den 05.10.2008, 12:20 -0700 schrieb Garrett Smith:
But what if the designer wants to use an image?
input type=search placeholder=ybang.gif
Would display the text:
bang.gif
- not the binary
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 1:07 PM, L. David Baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sunday 2008-10-05 12:20 -0700, Garrett Smith wrote:
But what if the designer wants to use an image?
input type=search placeholder=ybang.gif
Would display the text:
bang.gif
- not the binary resource of the image.
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Garrett Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 1:07 PM, L. David Baron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sunday 2008-10-05 12:20 -0700, Garrett Smith wrote:
What other use case did you have?
Were you t hinking of allowing styling of the placeholder
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Kristof Zelechovski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
TJ Atkins said:
Man, I could *really* see the hint function being viable and quite
useful. It offers up a completely new-and-useful semantic, and there's no
particular place it should already go. I'd accept this as a
Am Samstag, den 04.10.2008, 09:15 -0500 schrieb Tab Atkins Jr.:
The hint only displays when the input is both empty and not focussed.
Sounds like a job for a new CSS-pseudoclass regarding inputs, doesn't
it ?
Cheers,
Nils
Zelechovski
Cc: WHATWG
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Placeholder option for text input boxes
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Kristof Zelechovski [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
TJ Atkins said:
Man, I could *really* see the hint function being viable and quite
useful. It offers up a completely new-and-useful semantic
] Placeholder option for text input boxes
On 03/10/08 20:56, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Am Freitag, den 03.10.2008, 20:41 +0100 schrieb Adrian Sutton:
label for=²date²Date: input type=²text² placeholder=²1 Jan 2008²
id=²date² //label
Wouldn't three comboboxes be more appropriate
Am Samstag, den 04.10.2008, 16:34 +0200 schrieb Kristof Zelechovski
IMHO, The hint should not disappear on focus. It should remain until
a new value is entered.
This is a BAD idea for consistency reasons - historically only selected
text disappears on input.
Cheers,
Nils
: [whatwg] Placeholder option for text input boxes
Am Samstag, den 04.10.2008, 16:34 +0200 schrieb Kristof Zelechovski
IMHO, The hint should not disappear on focus. It should remain until
a new value is entered.
This is a BAD idea for consistency reasons - historically only selected
text
On 04/10/2008 15:46, Kristof Zelechovski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
IMHO, the hint should be marked when the control gets focus so that it will
be clear that the text will disappear.
That would be platform and implementation dependant. On OS X the text should
without doubt disappear on focus as
On Oct 4, 2008, at 7:01 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Andy Lyttle [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Oct 3, 2008, at 4:35 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
Man, I could *really* see the hint function being viable and
quite useful. It offers up a completely new-and-useful
On 10/3/08, Adrian Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Placeholder ... aids usability
having recently fought with some javascript which tried to enhance my
ability to enter text ('crash' in a keyword chooser using nokia's
webkit based browser on my phone), I'd like to remind people that
someone's
On 10/4/08, Adrian Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That would be platform and implementation dependant. On OS X the text should
without doubt disappear on focus as that's the behavior users would expect.
On Linux or Windows they might expect something different. There's no
reason the
On Oct 4, 2008, at 3:38 PM, timeless wrote:
On 10/3/08, Adrian Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Placeholder ... aids usability
having recently fought with some javascript which tried to enhance my
ability to enter text ('crash' in a keyword chooser using nokia's
webkit based browser on my
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 7:41 PM, Andy Lyttle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 4, 2008, at 3:38 PM, timeless wrote:
On 10/3/08, Adrian Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Placeholder ... aids usability
having recently fought with some javascript which tried to enhance my
ability to enter text
I've wrestled with this because its something that our designer has wanted
to use all over the place for an application I'm working on. It turns out to
be a usability nightmare if not used sparingly. When we used it, it was
definitely in place of an actual label, and I think this would be true in
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Brenton Strine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Andy Lyttle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Of course, it's still not in any way semantic. The only difference between
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Garrett Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Brenton Strine
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Andy Lyttle [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Garrett Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Brenton Strine
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
!DOCTYPE HTML
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
head
style type=text/css
*
{
font-size: 12px;
}
input
{
background-color: white;
margin-left:
dear mailing list,
please disregard my former submission.
(when one enters text and then unfocuses the input becomes garbled due
to overlaying the faux placeholder.)
cheers,
nils
Russell Leggett wrote:
I've wrestled with this because its something that our designer has
wanted to use all over the place for an application I'm working on. It
turns out to be a usability nightmare if not used sparingly.
Why was it a uasability nightmare? Would it still have been a
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Garrett Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Garrett Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Oct 3, 2008, at 10:15 AM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
Russell Leggett wrote:
I've wrestled with this because its something that our designer
has wanted to use all over the place for an application I'm
working on. It turns out to be a usability nightmare if not used
sparingly.
Why was it a
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Andy Lyttle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 3, 2008, at 10:15 AM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
Russell Leggett wrote:
I've wrestled with this because its something that our designer has
wanted to use all over the place for an application I'm working on. It turns
On 03/10/08 18:34, Tab Atkins Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
@Jonas: The question that presents itself is what semantic @placeholder
could present that isn't already covered by label.
Placeholder contains example text really nicely. It¹s quite distinct from
the field label, aids usability and
Am Freitag, den 03.10.2008, 20:41 +0100 schrieb Adrian Sutton:
Addresses prove to be an extremely good example because there are so
many different formats around the world and people get confused.
Dates also matter, eg:
label for=”date”Date: input type=”text” placeholder=”1 Jan 2008”
On 03/10/08 20:56, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Am Freitag, den 03.10.2008, 20:41 +0100 schrieb Adrian Sutton:
label for=²date²Date: input type=²text² placeholder=²1 Jan 2008²
id=²date² //label
Wouldn't three comboboxes be more appropriate ?
While that's a common solution
On Oct 3, 2008, at 1:31 PM, Adrian Sutton wrote:
On 03/10/08 20:56, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Am Freitag, den 03.10.2008, 20:41 +0100 schrieb Adrian Sutton:
label for=”date”Date: input type=”text” placeholder=”1 Jan 2008”
id=”date” //label
Wouldn't three comboboxes be
Am Freitag, den 03.10.2008, 15:04 -0700 schrieb Andy Lyttle:
On Oct 3, 2008, at 1:31 PM, Adrian Sutton wrote:
[...]
Obviously input type=date kicks ass for this particular example.
Why do y'all hate XForms ?
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Andy Lyttle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 3, 2008, at 1:31 PM, Adrian Sutton wrote:
On 03/10/08 20:56, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Am Freitag, den 03.10.2008, 20:41 +0100 schrieb Adrian Sutton:
label for=dateDate: input type=text
] Placeholder option for text input boxes
IE:
(did not test) - FWIRC, getAttribute('checked') will return the value
|false|, what happens after that, I do not know.
!DOCTYPE html
html lang=en
head
titleCHeckbox-attribute.html/title
/head
body
form action=
input type=checkbox checked=checked id=c
]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Garrett Smith
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 2:46 AM
To: whatwg
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Placeholder option for text input boxes
IE:
(did not test) - FWIRC, getAttribute('checked') will return the value
|false|, what happens after that, I do not know
] Placeholder option for text input boxes
Is vbscript defined to have the same dom bindings as jscript?
On 10/2/08, Kristof Zelechovski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
INPUT. CHECKED = checked
is equivalent to
INPUT. SETATTRIBUTE checked, checked
as of MSIE7.
Chris
My unit test:
SET L5ELEMS = ME
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Brenton Strine [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Andy Lyttle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip]
4) label (moving label textual content into input as placeholder
text; currently with Javascript to mutate the DOM, in the future with CSS
to
I would rather test whether a brand new INPUT object of type SEARCH has an
attribute named placeholder. Accessing attributes as properties is
discouraged and considered becoming obsolete; it should not be expected to
work for new attributes.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL
Please demonstrate a *valid* example of a placeholder containing a hint.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Lyttle
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:29 PM
To: whatwg@lists.whatwg.org
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Placeholder option
] Placeholder option for text input boxes
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Am Dienstag, den 30.09.2008, 11:49 -0700 schrieb Garrett Smith:
Are there any arguments against a |placeholder| property on INPUT?
Missing semantics ? It is a purely
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:43 PM, Kristof Zelechovski
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would rather test whether a brand new INPUT object of type SEARCH has an
attribute named placeholder. Accessing attributes as properties is
discouraged and considered becoming obsolete; it should not be expected
: [whatwg] Placeholder option for text input boxes
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:43 PM, Kristof Zelechovski
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would rather test whether a brand new INPUT object of type SEARCH has an
attribute named placeholder. Accessing attributes as properties is
discouraged and considered
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
DOM properties are not becoming obsolete; accessing attributes by properties
is.
Hmm. Citation?
--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
: 'Garrett Smith'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Placeholder option for text input boxes
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
DOM properties are not becoming obsolete; accessing attributes by
properties
is.
Hmm. Citation?
--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
, October 01, 2008 12:42 PM
To: Kristof Zelechovski
Cc: 'Garrett Smith'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Placeholder option for text input boxes
Kristof Zelechovski wrote:
DOM properties are not becoming obsolete; accessing attributes by
properties
is.
Hmm. Citation?
--
Benjamin
João Eiras wrote:
This usage is deprecated because it can not be generalized to all possible
attribute names
We recommend the use of generic methods on the core Element interface for
setting, getting and removing attributes.
[snip]
Please, don't make such claim again, they are misleading,
return a function directly?
Chris
-Original Message-
From: Joao Eiras [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 3:33 PM
To: Kristof Zelechovski
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Placeholder option for text input boxes
This usage is deprecated because it can
Which attributes return a number directly?
Which attributes return a function directly?
This is already clearly defined in DOM 2 HTML.
So following your line of reasoning, the entire DOM 2 HTML spec is deprecated ?
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joao Eiras
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 5:27 PM
To: Kristof Zelechovski
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Placeholder option for text input boxes
Which attributes return a number directly
2008/10/1 Kristof Zelechovski [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/html.html#ID-642250288 contains
the
same deprecating statement.
I think it would be really unfortunate if we followed through with this, and
I definitely think that input.placeholder should work.
The
PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Aaron Boodman
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:56 PM
To: Kristof Zelechovski
Cc: whatwg; Joao Eiras
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Placeholder option for text input boxes
2008/10/1 Kristof Zelechovski [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/html.html#ID
On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Kristof Zelechovski
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Please. This thread is not abort how to write JavaScript code in general.
It is about how to write the feature detection code. This kind of code
should be especially robust and relying on deprecated features does
To: Kristof Zelechovski
Cc: whatwg; Joao Eiras
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Placeholder option for text input boxes
On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Kristof Zelechovski
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Please. This thread is not abort how to write JavaScript code in general.
It is about how to write the feature
: [whatwg] Placeholder option for text input boxes
Another thing:
if( 'placeholder' in referencetoInput ){ ... }
can be used for feature detection, else a javascript fallback could be
supplied as the later is the common case.
Another thing:
if( 'placeholder' in referencetoInput ){ ... }
can be used for feature detection, else a javascript fallback could be
supplied as the later is the common case.
On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Aaron Boodman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Kristof
On Oct 1, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Aaron Boodman wrote:
On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Kristof Zelechovski
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Please. This thread is not abort how to write JavaScript code in
general.
It is about how to write the feature detection code. This kind of
code
should be
On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 5:11 PM, Maciej Stachowiak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 1, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Aaron Boodman wrote:
On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Kristof Zelechovski
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Please. This thread is not abort how to write JavaScript code in
general.
It is about
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:
Garrett Smith wrote:
|placeholder| sounds a little like |alt|. Alt is a property and an
attribute on INPUT.
How is placeholder content for a form field alternative text?
The alt text is for situations where the input can not be displayed at
all. For example an
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 4:10 AM, Andy Lyttle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I do not like this idea at all. That is what LABEL is for, and
disappearing
it's so kewl text is as annoying as BLINK and BGSOUND.
Chris
The label tag is great for labels that are displayed outside the input
box (in
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Garrett Smith wrote:
|placeholder| sounds a little like |alt|. Alt is a property and an
attribute on INPUT.
How is placeholder content for a form field alternative text?
If and until user enters text, the
Am Dienstag, den 30.09.2008, 08:25 -0700 schrieb Garrett Smith:
(Nils, did you mean to put this on the list, or is this personal mail?)
I meant to put it on the list - didn't it go there ?
If and until user enters text, the alternate text is displayed.
The confusing part is that
On Sep 30, 2008, at 8:33 AM, Nils Dagsson Moskopp wrote:
No, I meant to abolish the placeholder attribute alltogether and
render
the title attribute as greyed-sut inside the search box instead,
because
* semantically, the title attribute conveys the same
information.
* it is
On Sep 30, 2008, at 7:57 AM, Garrett Smith wrote:
If and until user enters text, the alternate text is displayed.
The confusing part is that successfully rendered inputs would be
rendered and still use the alt.
The good part is that it would be (or should be) accessible for
screen readers.
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Andy Lyttle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sep 30, 2008, at 7:57 AM, Garrett Smith wrote:
If and until user enters text, the alternate text is displayed.
The confusing part is that successfully rendered inputs would be
rendered and still use the alt.
The
Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
2) @alt
Pro: Presumably accessible to people with screen readers.
Presumptions are risky.
Is there any evidence (by which I mean a test case and a description of
how to reproduce behavior with real user agents) that demonstrates that
this would be true for INPUT
On Sep 30, 2008, at 7:00 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
Hm. I have a problem with your example. Get local weather
forecast isn't a semantic label for the field - it doesn't
describe what the field is for. It describes what the *form* is
for, and so should be a legend or hn. City, State
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:
Garrett Smith wrote:
|placeholder| sounds a little like |alt|. Alt is a property and an
attribute on INPUT.
How is placeholder content for a form field alternative text?
The alt text is for situations where the input can not be displayed at
all. For example an
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Andy Lyttle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sep 30, 2008, at 7:00 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
Hm. I have a problem with your example. Get local weather forecast
isn't a semantic label for the field - it doesn't describe what the field
is for. It describes what
Am Dienstag, den 30.09.2008, 12:04 -0500 schrieb Tab Atkins Jr.:
4) label (moving label textual content into input as placeholder
text; currently with Javascript to mutate the DOM, in the future with
CSS to present the desired appearance while keeping the DOM stable)
Pro: Most semantic. Can
Pros/cons for a |placeholder| property and attribute on TEXTAREA?
As I understand it, it was sort of an accident that Safari supports
placeholder on anything other than search fields, but there's no
reason it shouldn't apply to all text input fields including textarea.
I've just filed
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Andy Lyttle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sep 30, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:
Of course, the aesthetics of splitting the description between the label
and the placeholder text can't always be denied. Semantically, though,
you're still using your
Am Dienstag, den 30.09.2008, 11:49 -0700 schrieb Garrett Smith:
Are there any arguments against a |placeholder| property on INPUT?
Missing semantics ? It is a purely presentational attribute.
Cheers,
Nils
On Sep 30, 2008, at 12:14 PM, Nils Dagsson Moskopp wrote:
Am Dienstag, den 30.09.2008, 11:49 -0700 schrieb Garrett Smith:
Are there any arguments against a |placeholder| property on INPUT?
Missing semantics ? It is a purely presentational attribute.
It provides a hint to the user about what
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Am Dienstag, den 30.09.2008, 11:49 -0700 schrieb Garrett Smith:
Are there any arguments against a |placeholder| property on INPUT?
Missing semantics ? It is a purely presentational attribute.
The semantics would
Tab Atkins Jr.:
1) @placeholder
Con: Duplicates semantics already present in label, (...)
That could be circumvented by combining the two:
labelFoo input type=text placeholder/label
yielded
[Foo ]
whereas
labelFoo input type=text placeholder=Bar/label
resulted in
[Bar
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