Re: [WSG] CSS vs tables

Here are some thoughts on Tables and tableless design, I tried to make it brief :). Tables and divs (CSS needs some structure) have different properties and so react differently to different situations. A printed page is very different to a page viewed on the web via a web enabled device. Once a p

Re: Re: [WSG] Site Critique

I have updated the stylesheets to reflect the scalability of fonts in browsers. I have also added a stylesheet for printing, so it looks as it should in print preview (except in Mozilla and Firefox at the navigational menu, but I'll get that later). > > From: Mike Rainey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > D

Re: [WSG] Site Critique

That was the abridged version. A more extensive list of check points would include: 1. Quality of code - Valid HTML? - Valid CSS? - Semantically correct code? 2. Degree of separation between content and presentation - Full CSS? - Decorative images in css? 3. Accessibility for users - Scalable C

Re: Re: [WSG] Site Critique

Thanks. I needed that. The screen shots would be helpful. I have access to IE5/Mac but only during those rare occasions I can use my fiance's computer. I have tested it in all PC browsers and it looks like it should in all. The font's don't scale. I still have the stylesheets set up to display

RE: [WSG] Site Critique

Five excellent testing essentials. Thanks Russ. Luke Moulton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Russ Weakley - Maxdesign Sent: Saturday, 29 May 2004 10:28 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Critique Hi Michael, A few quick

Re: [WSG] Site Critique

Hi Michael, A few quick tests I always do on a page are: 1. check for scalability (increase font size a few times to see if it breaks) 2. look at it without CSS 3. look in lynx 4. look in a range of browsers 5. look in print preview The left nav fails badly in Mac/IE5, can send you screenshots of

[WSG] Site Critique

I have been working on updating my blog for some time and I can only go over it with my fine-tooth comb but so much before I can't see the forest for the trees. I would like the members of this group to go to this "beta" version of my blog and critique to your heart's content and point out anythin

Re: [WSG] when to place as a background in CSS

Agree. A good guide is to look at the page with CSS switched off. Does it still have meaning with some images missing? If images are decorative and in the CSS, no meaning should be lost. The reverse is also true. Is the page littered with unnecessary images that add no meaning? A page with CSS swi

RE: [WSG] when to place as a background in CSS

Bruce, that's perfectly acceptable, provided the image adds nothing but aesthetic content to the site. Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer http://www.seowebsitepromotion.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 May 200

RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts

Ok, Pat, as an exercise, would you like to illustrate how? I'd appreciate it if you could help me out here since I've done my best, along with others, to effort a tidy resolution. Remember, it must work with the other styles, 'dark' and 'light', so the borders don't vanish at sporadic browser width

[WSG] when to place as a background in CSS

Hello Group, I am creating a web site, that I want to make as accessible as possible. Some important images such as logos and the mast header I have placed in tags within the (x) html so I can give them alt tags, but other images which are basically decoration, I have placed within the CSS t

Re: [WSG] "An Objective Look at Table Based vs. CSS Based Design"

I think it was Michelangelo (though it might have been daVinci) who said regarding sculpture, that the statue was already in the stone--he merely removed the excess. I'm pretty sure it was Michaelangelo Mord. -- Ryan Christie| e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Harrisonburg, VA | w: http://shadyla

[WSG] Some links for light reading...

An excellent 3D diagram of the box model: http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/2004/05/3d_css_box_model/ Grey Box Methodology - Jason Santa Maria outlines an interesting beginning process for websites. http://www.jasonsantamaria.com/archive/2004/05/24/grey_box_method.php Joe Clark - Bookmarks for

Re: [WSG] FWD: remove widows/orphans?

Justin, Now I have water to throw on the fire brought forth by the designers here! ;) I do understand that the 's are doing more harm then good, so thank you for offering your perspective as a designer. I always speak up when the designers ask for a break here or a break there and let them know

Re: [WSG] CSS editor

The voices are telling me that t94xr.net.nz webmaster said on 5/28/2004 9:55 AM: Topstyle Pro 3.10 Pro is a better bet. Even tho there are copies floating around the net - one even on FOSIs site where ever that is. I purchased mine, I strongly recommend it for CSS editing. It wormed its way into

Re: [WSG] CSS editor

t94xr.net.nz webmaster wrote: Not free, but you could do a lot worse than Top Style 3. It combines HTML editing and CSS. Wriiten by the creator of Homsite. Topstyle Pro 3.10 Pro is a better bet. Even tho there are copies floating around the net - one even on FOSIs site where ever that is. I purcha

Re: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts

I like the design of the site. And it's particularly impressive from someone who's only been at it for 8 months! It can be done in CSS though, and without the need for lots of nested divs or hacks. You basically need to float the two main areas and use the footer to produce the bottom border of t

RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts

Title: Message And then the bloody this collapses erratically! I nearly went bald trying to find a resolution to this. I spend a couple of solid days examining options. Had a few CSS techies up for the challenge and we couldn't get it to render properly.   I've been with the negative flanki

RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts

Title: Message Hi, You could absolutely position the right hand column, put a right margin on the centre column of the width of the right column and have that and the left column fluid.   That would work, right?   Apologies again for my previous posts tone.     Jamie Mason: Design  

RE: [WSG]

For free? ;) Thanks Rimantas :o) I can hear what you're saying and agree that it is poor practice to advocate blind use of tables. Wherever possible, I will look to pure CSS - http://www.dataperception.com - when the design permits. As you say, don't promote tables when better and more appropriat

RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts

Title: RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts No, Jamie, not a joke.   As I said in an earlier post, it's possible to achieve almost anything with CSS but at what cost in time and nested divs to achieve the same result. And it's not a 'standard' 3 column layout; the right is fixed to m

Re: [WSG] CSS editor

> Not free, but you could do a lot worse than Top Style 3. It combines HTML > editing and CSS. Wriiten by the creator of Homsite. Topstyle Pro 3.10 Pro is a better bet. Even tho there are copies floating around the net - one even on FOSIs site where ever that is. I purchased mine, I strongly reco

Re: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts

From: "Jamie Mason" > "Ok, Rimantas, replicate http://seowebsitepromotion.com without tables and > without hacks." > - Mike Pepper > > Hi, > I don't want to lower the tone, but was that comment a joke or were you > serious? Your site is a standard 3 column layout, it's perfectly possible to > buil

RE: [WSG] CSS editor

Not free, but you could do a lot worse than Top Style 3. It combines HTML editing and CSS. Wriiten by the creator of Homsite. Be very very wary of StyleMaster which has a huge number of bugs in. Giles -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jad Madi

RE: [WSG]

>From: "Mike Pepper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Ok, Rimantas, replicate http://seowebsitepromotion.com without tables and >without hacks. For free? ;) And "hacks" issue is pretty gray area. Using tables involves hacks too, only they are in the blood of experienced web developer, so s/he hardly notices

RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts

Title: RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts "Ok, Rimantas, replicate http://seowebsitepromotion.com without tables and without hacks." - Mike Pepper Hi, I don't want to lower the tone, but was that comment a joke or were you serious? Your site is a standard 3 column layout, it's perf

Re: [WSG] CSS editor

Jad Madi wrote: Greetings is there any free but good CSS style editor around ? What do you mean by free? There are a lot CSS editors: My favorite is Vim. Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check

RE: [WSG]

Ok, Rimantas, replicate http://seowebsitepromotion.com without tables and without hacks. I'd sooner wait for some decent columnar formatting options then, when the time comes, do a search and replace on the tabular structure. Mike Pepper -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto

Re: [WSG] Re: Hybrid layouts

Hi Alan, >I think part of this debate is because many developers have years of >experience and know all the tricks of getting tables laid out how they >want. True to a degree. What you really gather over the years is a pool of knowledge as to the way a web browser behaves and ways to handle that

Re: [WSG] accessible and stylish forms

7 Steps to Useable Forms http://www.sitepoint.com/article/steps-useable-forms Build Accessible Online Forms http://www.sitepoint.com/article/accessible-online-forms Style Web Forms Using CSS http://www.sitepoint.com/article/style-web-forms-css On Thu, 27 May 2004 16:21:10 -0700 (PDT), Cameron Adam

[WSG] CSS editor

Greetings is there any free but good CSS style editor around ? and is there any offline version of CSS validater? for windows ? something like (a real validater for HTML ) Thank you folks * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ S

Re: [WSG] Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death

spanish readers http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sitepoint.com%2Fprint%2Ftables-vs-css&langpair=en%7Ces&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools On Fri, 28 May 2004 18:13:39 +1000, Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Fri, 28 May 2004 17:41:38 +100

RE: [WSG]

-- Original Message - From: "Mike Pepper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Be practical with the constraints of our standards. Of course it is >*possible* to build a perfect 3 column layout in CSS exactly as you want >it -- but at what cost in terms of time and complexity. You end up cater

Re: [WSG] Re: Hybrid layouts

Indeed Alan, you are in the best position to learn CSS, without the need, as Mordechai, mentions to rewire your layout thinking. A friend of mine new to CSS layout said to me the other day that he finds the process counter intuitive and akin to trying to find a ball bearing in a pool of diarrhe

RE: [WSG] Proper usage of Blockquote and Cite

Thanks Russ and Alan I agree, option 2 makes the most sense here as I want to attribute the quote to a person and want it to be visible in the most commonly used browser on the planet. 2. As an element to add meaning to the blockquote: content... Harry Pot

RE: [WSG]

Couldn't agree more, Kym. Be practical with the constraints of our standards. Of course it is *possible* to build a perfect 3 column layout in CSS exactly as you want it -- but at what cost in terms of time and complexity. You end up catering for all browsers by incorporating kludges and fixes whi

[WSG] Re: Hybrid layouts

I think part of this debate is because many developers have years of experience and know all the tricks of getting tables laid out how they want. For someone new, like me, I'm as well to dive straight in and learn CSS rather than worrying about "the old way". I'd be interested in your views of my

Re: [WSG] Comment and site check

Jaime, I was thinking that the logo image actually has a semantic meaning (which can be represented by an "alt" tag). Changing the version of the logo would be a simple matter of replacing your image file with one of the same name. But your using an h1 probably makes more semantic sense in the

Re: [WSG] Proper usage of Blockquote and Cite

Bert, Cite can be used as an 'element' or as an 'attribute'. The cite element contains a citation or a reference to other sources. It is an inline element: As Harry Potter said, Look out! The cite attribute can be used with , , and elements: Some text and additional text then more text. So,

[WSG] but what is tabular data?

Title: [WSG] but what is tabular data? Comments inline, I'm asking for help as much as I am trying to answer, I'm learning too. Do this ->  :) Jamie Mason: Design   -Original Message- From: Kym Kovan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 May 2004 10:59 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subj

Re: [WSG] "An Objective Look at Table Based vs. CSS Based Design"

Neerav wrote: IMHO while the article has some good points, trying to claim that it is an "objective" article is going to far. I'd say it is subjective in some a parts especially "Some Things Are Just Easier with Tables" which sounds like he's saying its all too hard I can't be bothered ...

RE: [WSG] tables vs CSS, the untitled posts

Title: RE: [WSG] tables vs CSS, the untitled posts Hey matey, My post wasn't an attack by the way ;) I misunderstood your post and that case and read as if you were saying "just think what could be possible if we used BOTH!" which I saw as missing the point, apologies! Sorry. It's been a long

Re: [WSG] Hybrid layouts

Kym Novan wrote: Using the 3 column example I mentioned earlier a single 3 column table holding the column content exactly as you want it (if I remember correctly the earlier discussion was about a layout with a fixed width RH column for news and proportional for the left and centre columns) is

RE: [WSG]

Hi all, I've seen words to this affect quoted several times recently: >Tables are for tabular data only, and I agree with that philosophically but what is tabular data? To me the third option from Chris: >I would like to see a third version that uses a combination of the two, the best of >ea

Re: [WSG]

For sure Jamie. My statement was intended more as feedback on the article than a real world solution. It would still be a useful exercise for the article to demonstrate this approach esp. for the benefit of new developers on how to get the job done while they are still in the process of learnin

RE: [WSG]

Title: RE: [WSG] Hi, Tables are for tabular data only, not for use for layouts as a positional grid. The only time tables should be used with CSS is to present tabular data in the content of a CSS laid out design. Cheers, Jamie Mason: Design   -Original Message- From: Chris Blown

Re: [WSG]

I would like to see a third version that uses a combination of the two, the best of each method merged.. The Hybrid Approach. Regards Chris Blown On Fri, 2004-05-28 at 17:41, Gary Menzel wrote: > > Sergio Villarreal has written 'Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the > Death', > > a SitePoint article w

Re: [WSG] Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death

On Fri, 28 May 2004 17:41:38 +1000, Gary Menzel wrote: > And, other than remembering the "old" hacks (versus the new > ones he was still to implement to fix up some of the CSS/XHTML > incompatibilities) it was all smooth sailing from beginning to end. Yes, it concerned me that he says: "Although C

Re: [WSG]

> Sergio Villarreal has written 'Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death', > a SitePoint article where he does the same design in tables and then in > css, and then comes to some conclusions about which was better. > http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css > Interesting read. After finishi

RE: [WSG] Comment and site check

Thank you very much Hugh For the logo, I was thinking about future site update. They have a couple version of logo and might wish to swap them around. The logo might be of different size. A background logo using CSS will save me lots of time if the logo change. It's either that or changing the ima

[WSG] Re: Proper usage of Blockquote and Cite

> Is this the semantically correct way to use these elements? I would end the blockquote AFTER the cite. Alan Testimonial or feedback here More feedback by same person NN, Occupation * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.o

Re: [WSG] Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death

Daniel Torres Burriel wrote: Lea de Groot wrote: Sergio Villarreal has written 'Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death', a SitePoint article where he does the same design in tables and then in css, and then comes to some conclusions about which was better. http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-v

Re: [WSG] Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death

Lea de Groot wrote: Sergio Villarreal has written 'Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death', a SitePoint article where he does the same design in tables and then in css, and then comes to some conclusions about which was better. http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css Interesting read. For s