Forgive me if I am mistaken, but isn't Accessibility one of the cornerstones
of the whole concept of Web Standards?
Thus, you can have Accessibility, and be an Accessibility specialist,
without Standards (as unlikely as that might be), but you cannot profess
Standards expertise without having
My previous employer has advertised for someone to fill my old job and
apparently it's not looking hopeful. They want someone who can hit
the ground running but I think it really is a case of what Kay was
saying - you have to expect to train people. But the job description
was based around my
Hi
All,
I don't know
if you guys experience the same anoying and frustrating talks when it
comes
to convince
a prospect/client of the fact his/her site isn't working for most of the
world.
-- The fact
that it's not build following certain standards, the fact Google is like a
blind,
Searching for s2store in google returns it
as the first result?
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kristof Rutten
Sent: Thursday, 25 November 2004
8:26 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] It's so
frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and
Kristof Rutten wrote:
How do you convince your client to spend a little more on the design,
the coding and the usability
when the most simple logic doesn't work ?
Remember that most clients don't care a jot about accessibility and web
standards. Sell them on the business benefits. However if
Yeah, OK. But nothing more. Just the flash items.
Not a single product on his site.
The prospect is a large sound light reseller. He needs to make a
living
out of DJ's, Clubs, .. Try to search for one of his specifics on
google.
Don't you think it's odd that a site with a gazillion
As I'm just now starting to use web standards in my business, and
haven't had to yet make the sales pitch, these are just some random
thoughts.
Why would we have to sell the idea of web standards? Why not just use
them? Sell your services like usual, and use all the tools you know to
create
Screenreaders have loads of useful features built in like the ability
to bring up a list of all the headings on a page and then jump to that
heading. However the vast majority of screenreader users don't use
these advanced features.
The same goes with websites. Just because you add things in
I totally agree. But then it comes to budget.
And your clients ASKS why your offer is quoted higher. Then you have the
explaining to do.
It seems like reason isn't among most of the buyers lately ;) Or is this
just Belgium...
.K
-Original Message-
From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hi,
I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to
study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide.
I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility,
but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet
accessibility needs.
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:06:51 +0100, Kristof Rutten
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I totally agree. But then it comes to budget.
And your clients ASKS why your offer is quoted higher. Then you have the
explaining to do.
I don't really get why your quote should be higher and don't really
like that
I have Basilisk installed, but it is of no use for web page testing, as
PPC applications do not run on it, no matter the OS version: the most
modern browsers I found in 68k version are IE 4.0, Netscape 4.05 and
iCab 2.95. Until I find the time to install PearPC, I try to simulate
Safari
I'm not sure I understand why it would cost more to use web standards.
Even if it did on the design and build, it would surely even out once
maintenance costs were factored in.
~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Development
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter
on 11/25/2004
http://www.w3.org/WAI/
~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Development
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter
on 11/25/2004 10:11 AM Tim Burgan said the following:
Hi,
I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to
study I'm looking to get some casual
on 11/25/2004 10:18 AM Bert Doorn said the following:
It's also frustrating to get emails with microscopic text...
heh...I didn't notice that myself, since I have HTML turned off in
Thunderbird.
~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Development
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:40:10 +1100, Brett Walsh wrote:
Searching for s2store in google returns it as the first result.?
No, the point is that there are no descriptions to entice the searcher
to click on that link and that of the many, many pages on the site
(have a look - its a fair sized
On 25 Nov 2004, at 5:48 PM, Mordechai Peller wrote:
As the only proper way to test to to actually run the software (screen
shots don't help much with JavaScript), and while any standards based
code which works properly in Firefox stands a good chance of also
working in Safari, IE, on the other
Try the W3C as a good starting point:
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/full-checklist.html
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-TECHS/
Regards,
David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org
Southbank, Melbourne
Australia
Hi,
== in English e.g.:
http://www.gawds.org/
http://www.washington.edu/doit/Resources/accessweb.html
http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/currents/spring02/slatin.html
http://www.barrierfree.ca/index.htm
- Original Message -
From: Tim Burgan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [WSG] Web Standards Group
and also:
http://www.webaim.org/
and general:
http://aware.hwg.org/sites/
greetings
johannes
- Original Message -
From: Tim Burgan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [WSG] Web Standards Group [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 11:11 AM
Subject: [WSG] Learning to design
http://diveintoaccessibility.org/ gives you a good little overview.
Patrick H. Lauke
-Original Message-
From: Tim Burgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 25 November 2004 10:11
To: [WSG] Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
Hi,
I've done
This is brilliant!
Thanks for the kick-start everyone.
Tim
--
Tim Burgan.
Website Development Graphic Design
E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W www.timburgan.com
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See
john wrote:
I'm not sure I understand why it would cost more to use web standards.
Even if it did on the design and build, it would surely even out once
maintenance costs were factored in.
The problem isn't web standards or not web standards, the problem seems
to be quality vs cost.
If you do
Some useful links for general UI Design:
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/index.html
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/AquaHIGuidelines/
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnwue/html/welcome.asp
I haven't taken the time (yet) to go through some of these to
I was looking through the Adobe GoLive forum and came across this comment, which I thought would be of interest. I'm not trying to provoke a response here, but I think it's important to hear the perspective of an employee at Adobe who often helps people with CSS questions on their forum. And since
Ron,
it is clear to me that the individuals who designed this
application were/are not hard core CSS scripters.
Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me that the
people who designed the CSS standard were entirely unconcerned about
how it might ever
I've just finished some interactive tutorials for content developers which
may be of use. It only covers the basics but does get the point across (I
think).
http://www.websemantics.co.uk/workshop/sessions/session2/
Also you might need greater detail on forms:
Bert Doorn wrote:
It's also frustrating to get emails with microscopic text (accessibility
issue). Text/plain please?
Both Thunderbird and Firefox allow you to set the minimum font size.
Accessibility fighting back!
As far as your dilemma goes - don't lower your standards (pun intended) for
All this taalk about web standards got me thinking about the underling of
links. As I understand it is that a person can turn on or off the
underlineing of links via there browser options. If a person turns off the
underlineing of links how would a web designer highlight a link? Is the
The point is only valid within their (Adobe's) current mode of thinking - that
Style Sheets are created on the fly as designers muck about trying things
within the visual editor, saving as they go. It may be done, but surely the
only way to design is to produce your designs off-line, produce
The Man With His Guide Dog At The Tent Store wrote:
All this taalk about web standards got me thinking about the underling of
links. As I understand it is that a person can turn on or off the
underlineing of links via there browser options. If a person turns off the
underlineing of links how
And yes, I'd say it's common knowledge with (sighted) users that an
underline signifies a link. That's why it's not recommended to use
underlined styles for other texts. Of course, underlines are not the
only clue as to what is and isn't a link. In most cases, it depends on
context. E.g. in a
This certainly is an interesting take from inside the
Adobe mentality.
Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me that the
people who designed the CSS standard were entirely unconcerned about
how it might ever be handled by visual editors, since none of them
actually
Warning my response is long and perhaps rambles a bit -- there are the
beginnings of some nice ideas but it's lacking polish - I'm tired.
When I pitch for a site I don't talk about web standards and
accessibility per se - these are just methodologies I use to deliver
results. Web standards and
Terrence Wood wrote:
When I pitch for a site I don't talk about web standards and
accessibility per se - these are just methodologies I use to deliver
results. Web standards and accessibility are invisible to the untrained
eye.
I always liken this to something like the construction industry: if
Patrick you are right -- in and of itself flash satay doesn't improve
accessibility. But using the object tag properly does - which is what
the satay method uses (I use a variation with IE comments).
Example (accessible image map, but same principles apply):
Is there a resource that's available that
is able to fill the gaps in my knowledge
regarding accessibility?
You might want to try:
http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/accessibility
Laura
___
Laura L. Carlson
Information Technology Systems and Services
University of
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I
use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very
annoying and cumbersome.
Cheers.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See
Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions?
I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is
very annoying and cumbersome.
Cheers.
**
The discussion list for
There is no need to open a new window in this case, in fact opening a
new window for the reason so that the user can't use the back button
is just lazy programming.
The form pages should hold the users information, and be able to
maintain state if the user goes backward and submits again. This
Hi Stephen,
Its still in Beta, but Google Gmail handles discussion threading
really well. I subscribe to all of my lists (including this one) with
my Gmail account, and keep it separate from my personal and business
mail which gets delivered to my mail client.
Also you can keep all of the
I meant Thunderbird! sorry
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:26:16 +1100, Matt McCallum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Stephen,
Its still in Beta, but Google Gmail handles discussion threading
really well. I subscribe to all of my lists (including this one) with
my Gmail account, and keep it
Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I
use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very
annoying and cumbersome.
Mozilla Thunderbird. View Sort by Threaded
Note: When somebody doesn't 'Reply to' a post (meaning,
I agree with David. Your PHP guy is simply mistaken. Or, to be
charitable, he has failed to get across whatever point he wanted to
make.
I can't see why opening a new window makes any difference at all. And
if it's absolutely crucial that people don't use the back button,
what's wrong with
Gosh, I just had some email rage, y'know like road rage but about this
email. edit expletives about the backend person
Forms, database connections, cookies, and sessions, have nothing to do
windows, and I suggest your backend coder does know what he is doing if
he needs a new window to make
Something I think you all are missing is that you have taken time to
learn about standards and accessibility.
I think I can charge more for my services because I have more knowledge
about standards.
So for me the price may be more expensive - but they are paying for my
knowledege and experience
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:04:34 +1100, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I
use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very
annoying and cumbersome.
Although it's not trendy to mention it,
C: Alt and left arrow key (works for forward with right arrow key as
well)
Tim Hill
Computer Associates
Graphic Artist
tel: +612 9937 0792
fax: +612 9937 0546
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cameron Adams
Sent:
Opening a window without navigation elements doesn't
actually stop you from going back in the browser's
history.
You can either:
A. Hit the backspace button to go back
B. Right-click and choose back
This is all when and good, but many users are still only just getting the
concept of
Yes, that is a good point, and is what I was getting at earlier:
you really need to tell the story of why your 'expensive' design is
so much better than you competitors cheap design
There is a joke (loosely paraphrased) about the plumber kicking a pipe
and charges $100 for it. When the bill is
What you are really getting at is not so much that you charge more
because you know about building accessible standards based websites but
because your experience is broader. For example you can say ...and
because the site is built this way it has such and such benefits to
vision impaired
I am a bit amazed with Adobe's approach to this matter; i even hope that it
was this technical man's personal opinion on the subject. Why? The DW team
is constantly trying to make their product compatible with web standards -
the WaSP group is encouraging them to do so
Hi Priscilla,
I develop in PHP (though the actual language is fairly irrelevant) and
based on what you say it sounds like a fingers crossed approach to the
problem. Not knowing the perspective of your developer I cannot say
whether he is wrong or right, but I can say with absolute certainty
Hi,
I'm experimenting with using javascript to write in alternate style
information into the body of my webpages, similar to the current
www.smh.com.au method (view source and scroll down to immediately inside
body).
The method seems to work fine, but I am wondering about the pros/cons of
doing
Hi all,
This is probably not the forum for such things, and if not, my apologies, but...I've been slaving away on a C# project in MS Visual Studio .NET (2002) and have spent a good couple of hours trying to find out a way to stop the blasted thing from ruining my lovely XHTML1.0 Strict code!
I
I of course already use it I just didn't know it had this feature,
slightly annoying.
Thanks!
Jeffery Fernandez wrote:
Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread
discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the
discussion list is very
Link to my problem page (http://dampsponge.com/layout/layout1.htm)
I want to understand containing boxes and why some child boxes don't push
their parent down the page. I have a div in this page called;
#container
border: 1px solid #000;
background: url(purlpeimage.jpg) repeat-y right;)
this
In VS.NET, under Tools...Options...Text Editor...C#...
uncheck the box for Automatically format completed constructs and
pasted source
Also, make sure your checkboxes under Tools...Options...HTML Designer...
are all set to HTML View.
Let me know if that helps.
Francesco
On Fri, 26 Nov
As far as I see Adobe is not to bothered with webstandards, Macromedia
see standard compliance as a string to DW bow.
The adobe site is based old skool web design, surface looks nice but
underneth its ugly.
I gather that since adobe is renowned and respected for design
orientated products
ADMIN
Hi all,
This is probably not the forum for such things, and if not, my apologies,
but...I've been slaving away on a C# project in MS Visual Studio .NET (2002)
and have spent a good couple of hours trying to find out a way to stop the
blasted thing from ruining my lovely XHTML1.0
I asked the same issue a few days ago, the answer is on the following page
Mordechai Peller advised me to read the following
Another thing to check out
http://positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html
I read it, and decided to adopt a work around since I found the syntax
of the various hacks
On 11/25/04 7:00 PM Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out:
To be honest I don't understand how building using standards could cost
more unless you simply don't know what your doing. Its really as simple
as that, there is no extra work involved in using standards, if anything
its
I rarely even mention web standards to clients anymore unless they are
govt or govt agencies. I agree that as someone paying a builder to
build a house for me, I don't need to know the pros and cons of a
certain type of mortar - just do the job and do it so it gets me the
result I want!
My pitch
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