Sergio Villarreal has written 'Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death',
a SitePoint article where he does the same design in tables and then in
css, and then comes to some conclusions about which was better.
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css
Interesting read.
Lea
--
Lea de Groot
Lea de Groot wrote:
Sergio Villarreal has written 'Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death',
a SitePoint article where he does the same design in tables and then in
css, and then comes to some conclusions about which was better.
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css
Interesting read.
For
Daniel Torres Burriel wrote:
Lea de Groot wrote:
Sergio Villarreal has written 'Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the Death',
a SitePoint article where he does the same design in tables and then
in css, and then comes to some conclusions about which was better.
Is this the semantically correct way to use these elements?
I would end the blockquote AFTER the cite.
Alan
blockquote
pTestimonial or feedback here/p
pMore feedback by same person/p
citeNN, Occupation/cite
/blockquote
*
The discussion
Thank you very much Hugh
For the logo, I was thinking about future site update. They have a couple
version of logo and might wish to swap them around. The logo might be of
different size. A background logo using CSS will save me lots of time if the
logo change. It's either that or changing the
Sergio Villarreal has written 'Tables Vs. CSS
- A Fight to the Death',
a SitePoint article where he does the same design in tables and then
in
css, and then comes to some conclusions about which was better.
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/tables-vs-css
Interesting read.
After finishing
On Fri, 28 May 2004 17:41:38 +1000, Gary Menzel wrote:
And, other than remembering the old hacks (versus the new
ones he was still to implement to fix up some of the CSS/XHTML
incompatibilities) it was all smooth sailing from beginning to end.
Yes, it concerned me that he says:
Although
I would like to see a third version that uses a combination of the two,
the best of each method merged.. The Hybrid Approach.
Regards
Chris Blown
On Fri, 2004-05-28 at 17:41, Gary Menzel wrote:
Sergio Villarreal has written 'Tables Vs. CSS - A Fight to the
Death',
a SitePoint article where
Title: RE: [WSG]
Hi,
Tables are for tabular data only, not for use for layouts as a positional grid. The only time tables should be used with CSS is to present tabular data in the content of a CSS laid out design.
Cheers,
Jamie Mason: Design
-Original Message-
From: Chris Blown
For sure Jamie. My statement was intended more as feedback on the
article than a real world solution.
It would still be a useful exercise for the article to demonstrate this
approach esp. for the benefit of new developers on how to get the job
done while they are still in the process of
Hi all,
I've seen words to this affect quoted several times recently:
Tables are for tabular data only,
and I agree with that philosophically but what is tabular data?
To me the third option from Chris:
I would like to see a third version that uses a combination of the two, the best of
each
Kym Novan wrote:
Using the 3 column example I mentioned earlier a single 3 column table
holding the column content exactly as you want it (if I remember
correctly the earlier discussion was about a layout with a fixed width
RH column for news and proportional for the left and centre columns)
Bert,
Cite can be used as an 'element' or as an 'attribute'.
The cite element contains a citation or a reference to other sources. It is
an inline element:
pAs citeHarry Potter/cite said, q lang=en-usLook out!/q/p
The cite attribute can be used with blockquote, q, del and ins
elements:
pSome
Jaime,
I was thinking that the logo image actually has a semantic meaning
(which can be represented by an alt tag). Changing the version of the
logo would be a simple matter of replacing your image file with one of
the same name.
But your using an h1 probably makes more semantic sense in the
I think part of this debate is because many developers have years of
experience and know all the tricks of getting tables laid out how they
want.
For someone new, like me, I'm as well to dive straight in and learn CSS
rather than worrying about the old way.
I'd be interested in your views of my
Couldn't agree more, Kym.
Be practical with the constraints of our standards. Of course it is
*possible* to build a perfect 3 column layout in CSS exactly as you want
it -- but at what cost in terms of time and complexity. You end up catering
for all browsers by incorporating kludges and fixes
Thanks Russ and Alan
I agree, option 2 makes the most sense here as I want to attribute the quote
to a person and want it to be visible in the most commonly used browser on
the planet.
2. As an element to add meaning to the blockquote:
blockquote
pcontent.../p
Indeed Alan, you are in the best position to learn CSS, without the
need, as Mordechai, mentions to rewire your layout thinking. A friend of
mine new to CSS layout said to me the other day that he finds the
process counter intuitive and akin to trying to find a ball bearing in a
pool of
-- Original Message -
From: Mike Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Be practical with the constraints of our standards. Of course it is
*possible* to build a perfect 3 column layout in CSS exactly as you want
it -- but at what cost in terms of time and complexity. You end up catering
Greetings
is there any free but good CSS style editor around ?
and is there any offline version of CSS validater? for windows ?
something like (a real validater for HTML )
Thank you folks
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
7 Steps to Useable Forms
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/steps-useable-forms
Build Accessible Online Forms
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/accessible-online-forms
Style Web Forms Using CSS
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/style-web-forms-css
On Thu, 27 May 2004 16:21:10 -0700 (PDT), Cameron
Hi Alan,
I think part of this debate is because many developers have years of
experience and know all the tricks of getting tables laid out how they
want.
True to a degree. What you really gather over the years is a pool of knowledge as to
the way a web browser behaves and ways to handle that.
Ok, Rimantas, replicate http://seowebsitepromotion.com without tables and
without hacks.
I'd sooner wait for some decent columnar formatting options then, when the
time comes, do a search and replace on the tabular structure.
Mike Pepper
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jad Madi wrote:
Greetings
is there any free but good CSS style editor around ?
What do you mean by free?
There are a lot CSS editors:
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssEditors
My favorite is Vim.
Tonico
--
Tonico Strasser ?:-)
http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de
Check
Title: RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts
Ok, Rimantas, replicate http://seowebsitepromotion.com without tables and without hacks.
- Mike Pepper
Hi,
I don't want to lower the tone, but was that comment a joke or were you serious? Your site is a standard 3 column layout, it's
From: Mike Pepper [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ok, Rimantas, replicate http://seowebsitepromotion.com without tables and
without hacks.
For free? ;)
And hacks issue is pretty gray area. Using tables involves hacks too, only they are
in the blood of experienced web developer, so s/he hardly notices using
Not free, but you could do a lot worse than Top Style 3. It combines HTML
editing and CSS. Wriiten by the creator of Homsite.
Be very very wary of StyleMaster which has a huge number of bugs in.
Giles
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jad
From: Jamie Mason
Ok, Rimantas, replicate http://seowebsitepromotion.com without tables
and
without hacks.
- Mike Pepper
Hi,
I don't want to lower the tone, but was that comment a joke or were
you
serious? Your site is a standard 3 column layout, it's perfectly
possible to
build that in
Not free, but you could do a lot worse than Top Style 3. It combines HTML
editing and CSS. Wriiten by the creator of Homsite.
Topstyle Pro 3.10 Pro is a better bet.
Even tho there are copies floating around the net - one even on FOSIs site
where ever that is.
I purchased mine, I strongly
Title: RE: [WSG] CSS vs tables - the untitled posts
No,
Jamie, not a joke.
As I
said in an earlier post, it's possible to achieve almost anything with CSS but
at what cost in time and nested divs to achieve the same result. And it's not a
'standard' 3 column layout; the right is fixed to
For free? ;)
Thanks Rimantas :o)
I can hear what you're saying and agree that it is poor practice to advocate
blind use of tables. Wherever possible, I will look to pure CSS -
http://www.dataperception.com - when the design permits. As you say, don't
promote tables when better and more
Title: Message
Hi,
You could
absolutely position the right hand column, put a right margin on the centre
column of the width of the right column and have that and the left column
fluid.
That would work,
right?
Apologies again
for my previous posts tone.
Jamie
Mason: Design
Title: Message
And
then the bloody this collapses erratically! I nearly went bald trying to find a
resolution to this. I spend a couple of solid days examining options. Had a few
CSS techies up for the challenge and we couldn't get it to render
properly.
I've
been with the negative
I like the design of the site. And it's particularly impressive from
someone who's only been at it for 8 months!
It can be done in CSS though, and without the need for lots of nested
divs or hacks.
You basically need to float the two main areas and use the footer to
produce the bottom border of
t94xr.net.nz webmaster wrote:
Not free, but you could do a lot worse than Top Style 3. It combines HTML
editing and CSS. Wriiten by the creator of Homsite.
Topstyle Pro 3.10 Pro is a better bet.
Even tho there are copies floating around the net - one even on FOSIs site
where ever that is.
I
The voices are telling me that t94xr.net.nz webmaster said on
5/28/2004 9:55 AM:
Topstyle Pro 3.10 Pro is a better bet.
Even tho there are copies floating around the net - one even on FOSIs site
where ever that is.
I purchased mine, I strongly recommend it for CSS editing.
AOL
It wormed its way
Justin,
Now I have water to throw on the fire brought forth by the designers here! ;)
I do understand that the br's are doing more harm then good, so thank you for
offering your perspective as a designer. I always speak up when the designers
ask for a break here or a break there and let them
An excellent 3D diagram of the box model:
http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/2004/05/3d_css_box_model/
Grey Box Methodology - Jason Santa Maria outlines an interesting beginning
process for websites.
http://www.jasonsantamaria.com/archive/2004/05/24/grey_box_method.php
Joe Clark - Bookmarks
I think it was Michelangelo (though it might have been daVinci) who
said regarding sculpture, that the statue was already in the stone--he
merely removed the excess.
I'm pretty sure it was Michaelangelo Mord.
--
Ryan Christie| e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Harrisonburg, VA | w:
Hello Group,
I am creating a web site, that I want to make as accessible as possible.
Some important images such as logos and the mast header I have placed in
img tags within the (x) html so I can give them alt tags, but other
images which are basically decoration, I have placed within the
Ok, Pat, as an exercise, would you like to illustrate how? I'd appreciate it
if you could help me out here since I've done my best, along with others, to
effort a tidy resolution. Remember, it must work with the other styles,
'dark' and 'light', so the borders don't vanish at sporadic browser
Bruce, that's perfectly acceptable, provided the image adds nothing but
aesthetic content to the site.
Mike Pepper
Accessible Web Developer
http://www.seowebsitepromotion.com/
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 28 May
Agree. A good guide is to look at the page with CSS switched off. Does it
still have meaning with some images missing? If images are decorative and in
the CSS, no meaning should be lost. The reverse is also true. Is the page
littered with unnecessary images that add no meaning?
A page with CSS
I have been working on updating my blog for some time and I can only go over it with my fine-tooth comb but so much before I can't see the forest for the trees.
I would like the members of this group to go to this "beta" version of my blog and critique to your heart's content and point out
Hi Michael,
A few quick tests I always do on a page are:
1. check for scalability (increase font size a few times to see if it
breaks)
2. look at it without CSS
3. look in lynx
4. look in a range of browsers
5. look in print preview
The left nav fails badly in Mac/IE5, can send you screenshots
Five excellent testing essentials. Thanks Russ.
Luke Moulton
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Russ Weakley - Maxdesign
Sent: Saturday, 29 May 2004 10:28 AM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Critique
Hi Michael,
A few
Thanks. I needed that.
The screen shots would be helpful. I have access to IE5/Mac but only during those rare
occasions I can use my fiance's computer. I have tested it in all PC browsers and it
looks like it should in all.
The font's don't scale. I still have the stylesheets set up to display
That was the abridged version. A more extensive list of check points would
include:
1. Quality of code
- Valid HTML?
- Valid CSS?
- Semantically correct code?
2. Degree of separation between content and presentation
- Full CSS?
- Decorative images in css?
3. Accessibility for users
- Scalable
I have updated the stylesheets to reflect the scalability of fonts in browsers. I have
also added a stylesheet for printing, so it looks as it should in print preview
(except in Mozilla and Firefox at the navigational menu, but I'll get that later).
From: Mike Rainey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date:
Here are some thoughts on Tables and tableless design, I tried to make it brief
:).
Tables and divs (CSS needs some structure) have different properties and so
react differently to different situations.
A printed page is very different to a page viewed on the web via a web enabled
device. Once a
50 matches
Mail list logo
