Forgive me Russ, while I was writing this email, your THREAD CLOSED came in
but I have an urge to finish my message.
Thank you Lea, Peter and others for not supporting the idea of turning this
wonderful group to a elitism group.
Here is my tiny timid newbie voice:
2 years ago I didn't know what
David Laakso wrote:
When you rectify the typology you may want to consider the typograpy.
Typography is an art, not a science. Bold TNR with bold oblique
Verdanda are not exactly inspiring.
David Laakso
http://www.dlaakso.com/sandbox/css.html
Being a bit nit-picky, aren't we David?
I think the presentation/structure dichotomy is a bit misleading...let's
talk about presentation/content (the structure of a page makes me
think of its presentation rather than the content that the presentation
is presenting).
And I'll just throw this out there: Does anyone know how screen
Hi all,
I'm displaying my cell borders using the page container div's background
image and border properties.
Works in IE and Opera but in all the Mozilla browsers I've tested in
(Netscape, Firefox and Mozilla) the container doesn't wrap around the divs.
I know it's something to do with all the
On 7/12/05 3:06 AM Nathan Rutman [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out:
However, I think if we look at the larger use of horizontal rules in
other mediums, we'll see that there's still a place for them on the web,
especially if we want a web that can store content from those other mediums.
Can you
I'm displaying my cell borders using the page container div's background
image and border properties.
Works in IE and Opera but in all the Mozilla browsers I've tested in
(Netscape, Firefox and Mozilla) the container doesn't wrap around the divs.
I know it's something to do with all the
Hi!
Am Dienstag, 12. Juli 2005 um 05:33:00 haben Sie geschrieben:
Am I alone in feeling that hr should be depreciated in favor of CSS
borders? Especially with section in the XHTML 2.0 drafts, what
semantic or even structural value does hr have? Every argument for
its retention that I've
Ben Wrighton - StraightForward wrote:
I know it's something to do with all the divs in the container div being
floated. If anyone can tell me how to solve it or point me in the direction
of the relevant resource I would really appreciate it.
try this and see if it doesn't help.
Can you 'xplain what that means? Maybe I missed your point. Seems like
bloviating.
Bloviating, huh? I learned a new word today. :-)
My point is a simple one. I mean that if we look outside of the web
where horizontal rules are applied (which is probably the HR tag's
origin), we see that
Martin Heiden wrote:
I'm not shure if an empty separator element is needed. I'd prefer to
use something like section, too, because it sets a bracket around
the content which has to be separated.
That's my feeling as well. It comes down between
section
blah1 blah1
/section
section
blah2
Martin Heiden wrote:
I'm not shure if an empty separator element is needed. I'd prefer to
use something like section, too, because it sets a bracket around
the content which has to be separated. But I guess that it is easier
to use separator for example in a dynamic drop down menu to divide
it
Nathan Rutman wrote:
My point is a simple one. I mean that if we look outside of the web
where horizontal rules are applied (which is probably the HR tag's
origin), we see that they have relevance to content.
Of course, one could argue that books, articles, any piece of print is
inherently
I believe it was renamed from hr because (like hr) it is not
necessarily horizontal.
Oh, that's an interesting point. I hadn't considered that implication.
-Nate
*Nathan Rutman* ([EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
Corporate Communications Designer
*Solvepoint Corporation*
882
Of course, one could argue that books, articles, any piece of print
is inherently a visual document. Therefore it makes sense that it needs
a visual hint to present structure. It's one of the only ways (combined
with things like layout etc) that can infer some sort of hierarchy and
structure
Nathan Rutman wrote:
Absolutely. Many structural elements for the web have their origins in
visual (i.e. written) communication.
A slippery slope. Taken the rationale to the extreme, heading elements
are superfluous if you can simply say make it bigger than the rest of
the text a la font
Nathan,
Am Dienstag, 12. Juli 2005 um 14:04:09 haben Sie geschrieben:
Similarly, strong and emphasized elements are derivations of bold
and italicized type, respectively. If you think about listening to a
speech verses reading a speech, the oral form gives much less
meaning to these
Patrick,
Thanks for your ideas. I'll be considering them more fully, but I did
want to respond with some initial thoughts/feelings:
Actually, I always saw paragraphs as one single thought or topic.
Once you go on to another thought, you're starting a new paragraph. Yes,
the name derives
Ok, real quick. :-)
strong and em aren't derivations of bold and italics but the
otherway around...
Yes, my fault. I should have been more careful.
In speech you do the same with intonation. If diferent people say
the same thing in diferent languages or even in the same, it sounds
Nathan,
Am Dienstag, 12. Juli 2005 um 15:37:41 haben Sie geschrieben:
In speech, I would say we do a similar thing...not the same. There are
rules for italics (refering to a particular thing, like a book or a
word) that don't refer to any verbal usage. You wouldn't want screen
readers to
We're starting to get pretty far out there. We'll have to see if any of
these hopes come to fruition (which is my response to PODcasting or
Talkr - we'll see if it's a lasting impact or a passing fad).
Why would people with perfect vision, who have since early childhood
relied on their
I haven't read the xhtml 2 specs and didn't know about the section tag
before. Here's my question. Can I use this in a web site now? With XHTML 1.0
transitional?
It would be a convenient hook for CSS.
I haven't tried it yet, but it goes to the bigger picture. When can we use a
tag that is part
Drake, Ted C. wrote:
Let's say I put a section tag in a page; knowing for now it will not be
recognized by the browser but may be useful in a few years. Is that a bad
thing?
Only insofar as doing it in an XHTML 1.x document will make it invalid.
--
Patrick H. Lauke
Nathan Rutman wrote:
Yeah, that's my point. The web was built primarily to be seen and
clicked on.
The web was built as a means to disseminate information.
Can X/HTML be used for other things? Sure. Is it best
suited towards other things? I'm not so sure. It seems to be rooted in
Is it possible to use a print CSS file to get type to justify in print output
or is justify strictly for screen?
If possible, what's the trick?
Thanks,
Dean
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See
Using a separate print style sheet:
p {text-align:justify}
Should do the trick but be sure the print.css file follows the default in the
HTML:
style type=text/css media=screen@import /styles/display.css;/style
link rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=print href=/styles/print.css
/
good content has structure, one
implies the other. the word used is irrelevant.
I dont know how screen readers handle
HR's no, and i guess not all screen readers handle them the same
way.
- if your HR denotes a change of
section, maybe use a h2 to begin that section. If you really want a
I may not be hip with the kind of basic design/marketing resources
you frequent. I'd be particularly mindful of marketing resources, as
they're clearly not an impartial or authoritive source of information on
what the web was meant to be and what HTML should be used for...
You weren't
Hi all.
I am new to Web Standards (within 6 months), but learn from this list daily
and appreciate it.
I have a three column site using fixed positioning. In Internet explorer,
when first entering the site, some of the text is at the top where it
shouldn't be. If I refresh the page or use the
hi Bruce: There are some errors in your html that may be causing it.
Validate your code and then see what's happening. if you don't have
firefox installed with its webdev extension you probably should and
that's maybe the easiest way to get to the validator. if you need more
help with that
The web was built as a means to disseminate information.
Patrick is correct.
The web is not a visual medium. Some marketers, graphic artists and
designers may be shocked to learn that.
The web is an information medium. One way in which that information is
conveyed is visually, to user
Thank you for answering Donna,
Validator says 1 error, and it's a h2 tag in a post. I also have a 3 pixel
gap below banner image that's driving me nuts.
body, img, banner, padding and margins set to 0
Standards are great, and I know there is a learning curve, but when one is
trying to exist and
Laura,
I understand that HTML certainly can be interpreted on other mediums.
You don't think it caters to one medium over another?
-Nate
*Nathan Rutman* ([EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
Corporate Communications Designer
*Solvepoint Corporation*
882 South Matlack Street, Suite
Woops, gap fixed. space in code.
Thank you for answering Donna,
Validator says 1 error, and it's a h2 tag in a post. I also have a 3 pixel
gap below banner image that's driving me nuts.
body, img, banner, padding and margins set to 0
Standards are great, and I know there is a learning
Donna Jones wrote:
hi Bruce: There are some errors in your html that may be causing it.
Validate your code and then see what's happening. if you don't have
firefox installed with its webdev extension you probably should and
that's maybe the easiest way to get to the validator. if you need
Bruce wrote:
Just frustrated I guess...
welcome to the club. enjoy the ride and the education (of yourself).
dwain :p
--
Dwain Alford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.alforddesigngroup.com
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable
Bruce wrote:
Thank you for answering Donna,
Validator says 1 error, and it's a h2 tag in a post. I also have a 3 pixel
gap below banner image that's driving me nuts.
body, img, banner, padding and margins set to 0
not sure if this is the issue, but your image is 84 pixels tall,
you
Bruce wrote:
I don't want to bother anyone, that's why I never ask, though it
can be a
tad frustrating as everytone knows.
Will hang in there though, not ready to toss standards yet ;-)
Thanks for the feedback. Will do more searches.
bruce,
don't concern yourself with bothering anyone.
Why should sighted people not be
allowed to appreciate art online?
Mike
Whitehurstwww.mike-whitehurst.co.uk
- Original Message -
From:
Laura Carlson
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent:
designer wrote:
David Laakso wrote:
When you rectify the typology you may want to consider the typograpy.
Typography is an art, not a science. Bold TNR with bold oblique
Verdanda are not exactly inspiring.
David Laakso
Being a bit nit-picky, aren't we David? The two fonts were
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:14:13 -0700, tee wrote:
Forgive me Russ, while I was writing this email, your THREAD CLOSED
came in but I have an urge to finish my message.
Hello Tee,
Thank you for your heart-felt message to the group.
I'm so glad you squeezed it in. It reflects my sentiments, too.
Let us not forget that the web is a totally different medium that a printed
document.While actual web presentation and structure has its origins in
the printed world, we talking a different puppy with a different set of
human needs and interactions with the same content. The brain
I understand that HTML certainly can be interpreted on other mediums.
You don't think it caters to one medium over another?
Perhaps some web designers concentrate on a particular CSS media type
[1] more than another. And perhaps on some web sites, sighted,
dexterous, able-bodied users
Why should sighted people not be allowed to appreciate art online?
Sighted people should be allowed to appreciate art online...and maybe
not in the same way, but people with a disability should be able to
appreciate them too.
Some people think that images are bad for accessibility. The
Nathan Rutman wrote:
I understand that HTML certainly can be interpreted on other mediums.
You don't think it caters to one medium over another?
Just because the larger percentage of users are able to access it with a
GUI, does not make the medium itself and the languages it's based biased
Mike Whitehurst wrote:
Why should sighted people not be allowed to appreciate art online?
None of us are arguing that. What I do object to, though, is the false
statement that the web is *primarily* a visual medium. That is utter
rubbish.
--
Patrick H. Lauke
Agreed. Information can be conveyed
through graphical representation too. Its still all 1s and 0s
at the end of the day.
Nikki
Maxima Consult -- Web Access, Web Sales,
Web Profit
Providers of internet marketing
servicesand accessible ebusiness solutions.
Nicola Rae
Maxima
Bruce wrote:
Woops, gap fixed. space in code.
Happy to know that's fixed and I helped. :-)
I'll tell you how I found it because its rather a new method to me and
may be to you and others. Its using the edit css in Firefox. Of
course, you can't see how it effects IE since its just local to
what do you mean by primarily? please
elaborate.
Mike
Whitehurstwww.mike-whitehurst.co.uk
- Original Message -
From:
Patrick
H. Lauke
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, July
Mike Whitehurst wrote:
what do you mean by primarily? please elaborate.
To simplify, what Nathan seems to be arguing is that HTML is mainly
meant to mark up documents in the tradition of print, and as such has a
bias towards visual rendition in a browser to sighted users. Our
argument is
Incidentally, I'm surprised that more people here haven't jumped in on
the discussion. Are all other web standards folks on here really in
agreement that (X)HTML is a visual language by design, or at least has a
strong bias towards the visual? I would have thought not, but there you
go...naive
Have you found any information on embedding quicktime movies, I have just
embeded VR mov when testing have no control bar in Explorer on Mac.
http://acuonline.acu.edu.au/chapel_stpatrick.html
Ian
Chris Kennon wrote:
After pouring over endless minutiae, if yet to grasp when and how to
use link rel= link rev= after having seen it numerous times,
peering at the code of many respected sites.
Right...first of all, I think that out of the two only rel is most
commonly used, as rev does
I don't think anyone here is arguing for HTML to be not accessible,
but I feel what Mike may be trying to point out is that visual design can be an
important part of the meaning.
For example, I work primarily on educational sites and we know that whitespace
and the amount of words in a line
Have you found any information on embedding quicktime movies, I have just
embeded VR mov when testing have no control bar in Explorer on Mac.
http://acuonline.acu.edu.au/chapel_stpatrick.html
Ian
Hi Ian, I didn't use the js script that was mention in my message, reason
was because I
Focas, Grant wrote:
For example, I work primarily on educational sites and we know that whitespace and the amount of words in a line are part of what determines how sighted people absorb the information and learn. The same information is available to a screen reader but the ability to absorb the
this is handy for people like me who dont
know the HTML Codes - Characters and symbols off by
heart or even1% by heart
http://www.ascii.cl/htmlcodes.htm
cheers
Jackie
jackie reid wrote:
this is handy for people like me who dont know the HTML Codes -
Characters and symbols off by heart or even 1% by heart
http://www.ascii.cl/htmlcodes.htm
cheers
Jackie
If you are like me, looking for short cuts and wanting to economise on
how much information is
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Incidentally, I'm surprised that more people here haven't jumped in
on the discussion.
...been busy cracking some more bugs related to the visual - as usual.
Are all other web standards folks on here really in agreement that
(X)HTML is a visual language by design, or
I don't think anyone here is arguing for HTML to be not accessible,
but I feel what Mike may be trying to point out is that visual
design can be an important part of the meaning.
Then you are teaching/presenting material in the visual register and
therefore presenting inherently inaccessible
Tape a 30 secondconversation between a husband and a wife, and there are no headers or
pages.It's a different ball game.Almost all forms of communication begin as structured content in the form of thoughts. You mentally structure what you want to say into sentences, you want parts of those
Wow! I admit that my presentation vs structure thread was an attempt to get the pros out of the woodwork, as mentioned in a thread earlier this week, but a spin-off thread? I should start debates more often! ;-)
Damian wrote:
(Essentially, a big equation can be broken down into component parts.
This can make it easier for blind users to read the equation and for
sighted users to understand the equation. The equation is the same,
it is just constructed in a more accessible form.)
It is accessible
If breaking the formula up into little chunks makescomprehension harder for the vast majority of people then we should not
do it and I do not agree with your assertion that breaking a complexformula will make it more understandable - it may in fact undermine thelearning.Breaking content up into
Something similar for those on mac --
http://earthlingsoft.net/UnicodeChecker/index.html
my $0.02
Regards,
Amit Karmakar
http://karmakars.com
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See
Grant replies:
Well, no. MathML by its nature is not purely for the visual register.
And no - we should not have to realign a complex formula if the
materials merit it because what we are doing then is making the content
less accessible/comprehensible for many people to allow it to be equally
Hi,
Incidentally, I'm surprised that more people here haven't jumped in on
the discussion. Are all other web standards folks on here really in
agreement that (X)HTML is a visual language by design, or at least has a
strong bias towards the visual? I would have thought not, but there you
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