Hi Adam,
Yes, LuaTeX is a evolving project, especially at the lowest level.
Am 01.08.2012 um 02:54 schrieb Adam Twardoch (List) list.a...@twardoch.com:
On 31.07.2012, at 13:02, Peter Dyballa peter_dyba...@web.de wrote:
it's questionable whether it's worth when XeTeX has reached its end of
On 31/07/2012 18:06, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Lua(La)TeX is a move in this direction. Modernizing TeX!!
Well, yes and no.
The problem with all the TeX engines, the elephant in the room that nobody's
talking about, is TeX itself. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great piece
of code, and it's
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 02:54:32 +0200 schrieb Adam Twardoch (List):
If LuaTeX was PythonTeX, I'd adopt it instantly.
Well some days ago I tried to use otfinst.py. The version on CTAN
mixes tabs and spaces and used an obsolete syntax for print. My
python didn't like both. To correct the second was
2012/8/1 Simon Cozens si...@simon-cozens.org:
On 31/07/2012 18:06, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
Lua(La)TeX is a move in this direction. Modernizing TeX!!
Well, yes and no.
The problem with all the TeX engines, the elephant in the room that nobody's
talking about, is TeX itself. Don't get me
Ulrike Fischer wrote:
Well some days ago I tried to use otfinst.py. The version on CTAN
mixes tabs and spaces and used an obsolete syntax for print. My
python didn't like both. To correct the second was not so difficult,
but the first was really trying. How to you get correct identation
when
2012/8/1 Philip TAYLOR p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk:
If I /were/ to propose a replacement language, I would strongly
advocate JavaScript, which has almost universal uptake, adoption
and acceptance. From a purely personal perspective, I would also
When LuaTeX started I also toyed with the idea and had
2012/8/1 Simon Cozens si...@simon-cozens.org:
On 01/08/2012 17:31, Zdenek Wagner wrote:
result with pure MF. Virtual fonts have to remedy the deficiencies of
encoding. The Latin alphabet for all languages (including Vietnamese)
contains 500+ characters but the non-Unicode encodings allow 256.
Simon Cozens wrote:
My feeling is that it's time to accept the principle of one to throw
away and finally put TeX82 out to pasture. Now we are blessed with a
set of technologies which have proved themselves, which give great
results on modern systems and have support for problems which were
Hi Zdenek,
I believe well are pretty much inline with each other.
Am 01.08.2012 um 10:48 schrieb Zdenek Wagner zdenek.wag...@gmail.com:
2012/8/1 Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de:
Hi Adam,
Yes, LuaTeX is a evolving project, especially at the lowest level.
Am 01.08.2012 um
2012/8/1 Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de:
Hi Zdenek,
I believe well are pretty much inline with each other.
Am 01.08.2012 um 10:48 schrieb Zdenek Wagner zdenek.wag...@gmail.com:
2012/8/1 Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de:
Hi Adam,
Yes, LuaTeX is a evolving project,
Am 01.08.2012 um 10:31 schrieb Zdenek Wagner zdenek.wag...@gmail.com:
[snip, snip]
XeTeX is not a remedy to TFM deficiencies, it is again the remedy of
encoding deficiencies. It won't be that difficult to extend TFM but
implementation of Unicode and support for comlpex Arabic and Asian
2012/8/1 Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de:
Am 01.08.2012 um 10:31 schrieb Zdenek Wagner zdenek.wag...@gmail.com:
[snip, snip]
XeTeX is not a remedy to TFM deficiencies, it is again the remedy of
encoding deficiencies. It won't be that difficult to extend TFM but
implementation of
Martin Schröder wrote:
When LuaTeX started I also toyed with the idea and had a look at
JavaScript interpreters - they were much larger.
Large enough to have any significant impact on a modern machine,
which one might reasonably expect to have 4Gb of RAM ? Size
mattered when Don wrote TeX;
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:32:16 +0200 schrieb Keith J. Schultz:
LuaTeX has a very small developer base and their goal is very
high. a long needed rewrite of TeX. That is a complex task.
From the simple user side. LuaTeX is about as easy as it gets. For
most purpose I can teach you all
This has been a very long threat and I admit not having read all mails. But I
can resist
sharing my opinion with you.
LuaTeX and XeTeX use two quite different strategies and therefore address
different
user communities: the former follows Knuth's philosophy of TeX being
independent of
other
2012/8/1 Philip TAYLOR p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk:
Martin Schröder wrote:
When LuaTeX started I also toyed with the idea and had a look at
JavaScript interpreters - they were much larger.
Large enough to have any significant impact on a modern machine,
which one might reasonably expect to have 4Gb
2012/8/1 Ulrike Fischer ne...@nililand.de:
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:32:16 +0200 schrieb Keith J. Schultz:
LuaTeX has a very small developer base and their goal is very
high. a long needed rewrite of TeX. That is a complex task.
From the simple user side. LuaTeX is about as easy as it gets. For
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:30:52 +0200 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
(As an aside I think that one should not only put pressure on
xetex/luatex/open type engines to support all sorts of open type
features and scripts but also on some scripts to adapt a bit to the
computer age.)
Do you mean it?
Yes.
Well, you could always write your own JavaScript interpreter
in Lua and get the best of both worlds :-)
Martin Schröder wrote:
bably not. IIRC the binaries where around 75 KB (Lua) and
750 KB(JS). Compare this with 1 MB for a recent Knuthian TeX
binary (on Linux) and 2 MB for pdfTeX.
JS was
2012/8/1 Philip TAYLOR p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk:
Well, you could always write your own JavaScript interpreter
in Lua and get the best of both worlds :-)
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10259842/would-it-make-sense-to-run-javascript-on-the-lua-vm
We are all very eagerly awaiting your
On 2012-08-01 01:48, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
How does this
affect what one can do with lua in luatex?
It does not, really. And this is not relevant to a discussion about
XeTeX.
It is, since it may determine how dependent I and others
2012/8/1 William Adams will.ad...@frycomm.com:
On Jul 31, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Keith J. Schultz wrote:
You are only partially correct. Yes, you can create very fine structures
off the glyphs. Yet, is only a part of the picture.
You forget interword spacing and kerning. Gutenberg, could never
2012/8/1 BPJ b...@melroch.se:
On 2012-08-01 01:48, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
How does this
affect what one can do with lua in luatex?
It does not, really. And this is not relevant to a discussion about
XeTeX.
It is, since it may
Ulrike Fischer wrote:
Well you only confirm my impression: That quite a lot of scripts
never felt the pressure put on us by the movable type printing.
Is that not good ? Would Chinese calligraphy look anywhere near
as beautiful if its glyph forms had been forcibly coerced into
meeting the
2012/8/1 Simon Spiegel si...@simifilm.ch:
Some comments from a long time lurker here on this mailing list: I've been
following this discussion with great interest but unfortunately it follows
the same pattern of many similar discussions in the past. The question on how
things could be
On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, Philip TAYLOR wrote:
Is that not good ? Would Chinese calligraphy look anywhere near
as beautiful if its glyph forms had been forcibly coerced into
meeting the constraints imposed by movable type printing ?
The question is whether the machine or the human being should be
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 14:47:50 +0200
From: Zdenek Wagner zdenek.wag...@gmail.com
To: Unicode-based TeX for Mac OS X and other platforms xetex@tug.org
Subject: Re: [XeTeX] The future of XeTeX
Message-ID:
CAC1phyYuD75RwibjeRpPLuCfuh5dB+xhGsT05mM8qSZPN0Qk=g...@mail.gmail.com
Simon Spiegel wrote:
From: Zdenek Wagner zdenek.wag...@gmail.com
There was a problem with polyglossia because Fran?oise Charette
left academia and no longer had time to maintain it. The current
maintainer is Arthur Reutenauer. I hope that a few volunteers could
help him. Microtypography is
Martin Schröder wrote:
And JS isn't designed for embedding
Interesting. I must admit that so far, I've *only* used JavaScript as an
embedded language -- starting with every web browser, plus most Adobe
applications, OpenOffice, as well pretty much all of Microsoft Office
applications (through
On 01.08.2012, at 15:10, Philip TAYLOR p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk wrote:
Simon Spiegel wrote:
From: Zdenek Wagner zdenek.wag...@gmail.com
There was a problem with polyglossia because Fran?oise Charette
left academia and no longer had time to maintain it. The current
maintainer is Arthur
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 11:58:31 +0100 schrieb Philip TAYLOR:
Well you only confirm my impression: That quite a lot of scripts
never felt the pressure put on us by the movable type printing.
Is that not good ? Would Chinese calligraphy look anywhere near
as beautiful if its glyph forms had been
Dear Adrian,
We shouldn't forget the quiet statement by Khaled
Hosnyhttp://tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2012-July/023329.html,
earlier in this discussion, that he is tentatively maintaining XeTeX,
with funding from TUG and Jonathan's oversight. In my view this is all
good, and gives me confidence to
On 01.08.2012, at 15:45, Philip TAYLOR p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk wrote:
Simon Spiegel wrote:
And it might be a good idea to come up with ideas how we can find this
someone.
ideas how we can ... involves discussion, unless you are
advocating implementation by fiat, which I am sure you
Simon Spiegel wrote:
I guess it is of little or no concern if you're not interested in
actually getting something done. As a user I'm much more interested
in how I can get working tools.
Then you probably use LaTeX and packages. I use plain TeX, because
I am just as interested in solving
2012/8/1 Simon Spiegel si...@simifilm.ch:
On 01.08.2012, at 15:45, Philip TAYLOR p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk wrote:
Simon Spiegel wrote:
And it might be a good idea to come up with ideas how we can find this
someone.
ideas how we can ... involves discussion, unless you are
advocating
Hello.
Around here there are some Indian people whose language uses Devanagari (but
there would be similar issues with other scripts), and some Sanskrit and Hindi
scholars as well. I wonder how many would accept to read what is below
(produced by LuaLaTeX), instead of किमिति.
Best wishes,
2012/8/1 Philip TAYLOR p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk:
Simon Spiegel wrote:
I guess it is of little or no concern if you're not interested in
actually getting something done. As a user I'm much more interested
in how I can get working tools.
Then you probably use LaTeX and packages. I use plain
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:54:37 +0200 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
LuaTeX can be considered a flavour of TeX thus if XeTeX can load a
font and use the glyphs as they are now and compose them to form a
word, I do not understand why a change in the script is needed. LuaTeX
is not able to form a word from
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
The question is whether the machine or the human being should be master.
I see no question. And I do not think that Zen masters or
master calligraphers would, either. It is only those for
whom it must compute is a mantra that could conceivably
believe
2012/8/1 Ulrike Fischer ne...@nililand.de:
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:54:37 +0200 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
LuaTeX can be considered a flavour of TeX thus if XeTeX can load a
font and use the glyphs as they are now and compose them to form a
word, I do not understand why a change in the script is
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 16:59:55 +0200 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
I didn't say that a change is needed, only that the complexity of
some scripts are part of the problem: complex scripts means complex
code and people who write, test, maintain, extend this code. And
such people are not always available
Hi Ulrike,
Am 01.08.2012 um 12:13 schrieb Ulrike Fischer ne...@nililand.de:
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:32:16 +0200 schrieb Keith J. Schultz:
From the simple user side. LuaTeX is about as easy as it gets. For
most purpose I can teach you all you need to know how to use Lua
for TeX in 2 hours!
2012/8/1 Zdenek Wagner zdenek.wag...@gmail.com:
2012/8/1 Ulrike Fischer ne...@nililand.de:
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 16:59:55 +0200 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
I didn't say that a change is needed, only that the complexity of
some scripts are part of the problem: complex scripts means complex
code and
On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, Ulrike Fischer wrote:
Perhaps (the discussion is rather long). But you obviously don't
accept my conclusion that one possible solution is to reduce the
complexity of the script. You are only looking for the people who
should write all this complex code.
Language is
Hi Zdenek,
Am 01.08.2012 um 13:22 schrieb Zdenek Wagner zdenek.wag...@gmail.com:
2012/8/1 Ulrike Fischer ne...@nililand.de:
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:30:52 +0200 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
Well you only confirm my impression: That quite a lot of scripts
never felt the pressure put on us by the
2012/8/1 msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, Ulrike Fischer wrote:
Perhaps (the discussion is rather long). But you obviously don't
accept my conclusion that one possible solution is to reduce the
complexity of the script. You are only looking for the people who
should write all
2012/8/1 Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de:
Hi Zdenek,
Am 01.08.2012 um 13:22 schrieb Zdenek Wagner zdenek.wag...@gmail.com:
2012/8/1 Ulrike Fischer ne...@nililand.de:
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:30:52 +0200 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
Well you only confirm my impression: That quite a lot of
On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, Zdenek Wagner wrote:
That is the line of thinking that would favour Graphite (a general system
for defining complex scripts inside fonts) over OpenType (which requires
That's right but we still have a lot of non-Graphite fonts.
We also don't have much enthusiasm, as far
Ulrike Fischer wrote:
Perhaps (the discussion is rather long). But you obviously don't
accept my conclusion that one possible solution is to reduce the
complexity of the script. You are only looking for the people who
should write all this complex code.
Ulrike, Ulrike, you are normally so
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:54:25 +0200 schrieb Keith J. Schultz:
That it why I emphasize the port of Polyglossia to LuaTeX.
Then Devagari would work for LuaTeX.
I doubt this very much. The problem as far as I understood it is the
handling of the font itself. If the problem would lie only in some
Hi Zdenek,
you and William are missing my point. it does not matter.
I believe you do not understand the full protential of modern typography,
font format and the use of TeX.
Glyphs need not be based on an particualar form in every situation. There
are ways to have different Glyphs as Gutenberg
It looks like something is happening there:
https://github.com/reutenauer/polyglossia/commit/45f2cb69b1ea3c388a7888374fff71e7d1a1479a
Am 01.08.2012 17:55 schrieb Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de:
Hi Zdenek,
Do you know what a script is? XeTeX uses scripts! The the choice of a glyph
is
2012/8/1 Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de:
Hi Zdenek,
you and William are missing my point. it does not matter.
I believe you do not understand the full protential of modern typography,
font format and the use of TeX.
Glyphs need not be based on an particualar form in every situation.
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
That is probaly teh biggest turn off to LuaTeX.
They should some people in as far as coding is concerned.
The missing documentation is something I would call a cardinal
offense.
For something that is free (in the real sense of the
2012/8/1 Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de:
Hi Zdenek,
Do you know what a script is? XeTeX uses scripts! The the choice of a glyph
is governed by a script.! Depending of the Font this is embedded into the Font
itself or at least should be. Polyglossia offers another way of scripting.
Ha, I was wondering how long it would take for someone to notice :-)
I just started porting Polyglossia to LuaTeX. I didn't have time to
do much yet, but I expect it's going to be a matter of days till all the
gloss files work. For the moment, all the languages relying on XeTeX's
2012/8/1 Arthur Reutenauer arthur.reutena...@normalesup.org:
Ha, I was wondering how long it would take for someone to notice :-)
I just started porting Polyglossia to LuaTeX. I didn't have time to
do much yet, but I expect it's going to be a matter of days till all the
gloss files work.
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:17:15 +0100 schrieb Philip TAYLOR:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
That is probaly teh biggest turn off to LuaTeX.
They should some people in as far as coding is concerned.
The missing documentation is something I would call a cardinal
offense.
For
Hi Zdenek,
I am perfectly, able to learn what I need to learn. I am perfectly able
to program in almost any programming langauge. TeX is one that I
can directly program in because I simple can grasp its philosophy.
The biggest problem to all this at what is needed is so essential, that
without
2012/8/1 Ulrike Fischer ne...@nililand.de:
Am Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:17:15 +0100 schrieb Philip TAYLOR:
Keith J. Schultz wrote:
That is probaly teh biggest turn off to LuaTeX.
They should some people in as far as coding is concerned.
The missing documentation is something I would
2012/8/1 Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de:
Hi Zdenek,
I am perfectly, able to learn what I need to learn. I am perfectly able
to program in almost any programming langauge. TeX is one that I
can directly program in because I simple can grasp its philosophy.
The biggest problem to all
Am 01.08.2012 um 18:56 schrieb Zdenek Wagner zdenek.wag...@gmail.com:
2012/8/1 Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de:
Hi Zdenek,
[snip, snip]
No, microtype does not offer more glyphs, it offers glyph distorted in
many different ratios. Multiple Master Fonts would be able to solve it
in
Let me try to focus this discussion back to a more general level. Keep
in mind that I am a scholar and sometime font creator, not a programmer.
A great many people, myself included, must use non-Latin scripts in
their work. They may also need to produce typographically sophisticated
2012/8/1 Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de:
Am 01.08.2012 um 18:56 schrieb Zdenek Wagner zdenek.wag...@gmail.com:
2012/8/1 Keith J. Schultz keithjschu...@web.de:
Hi Zdenek,
[snip, snip]
No, microtype does not offer more glyphs, it offers glyph distorted in
many different ratios.
Zdenek Wagner wrote:
!cibarA ot tebaphla nitaL eth tpada ot decrof erew ew fi neppah dlouw
tahw enigami dnA
... eht, not eth :-)
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 18:12:20 +0100
From: Arthur Reutenauer arthur.reutena...@normalesup.org
To: Unicode-based TeX for Mac OS X and other platforms xetex@tug.org
Subject: Re: [XeTeX] The future of XeTeX
Message-ID: 20120801171220.gp6...@phare.normalesup.org
Content-Type:
On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, David Perry wrote:
Yes, there are flaws in XeTeX, e.g., in connection with Hangul support. But I
I think XeTeX actually works quite well with hangul if the appropriate
features are turned on, and it sounds like their not being so was a bug
that's easy to fix. It was already
Whenever anything is available for testing, I can try some Czech and
Slovak texts.
Thanks. I will let you know when it's ready to be tested.
Arabic should work fine, but I'm not even sure about Syriac, for
example.
How about Urdu? It will be difficult for me but I can try to run some
On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 10:41:25PM +0100, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
Arabic should work fine, but I'm not even sure about Syriac, for
example.
How about Urdu? It will be difficult for me but I can try to run some tests.
I don't think it would work, actually. I should have written
My wondering was more whether what ConTeXt implements was actually
enough for Urdu (and other languages). As far as I know Oriental TeX is
only concerned with Arabic texts. But it's entirely possible that Urdu
would just work out of the box with ConTeXt / luaotfload's shaping
engine.
On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 11:37:31PM +0100, Arthur Reutenauer wrote:
My wondering was more whether what ConTeXt implements was actually
enough for Urdu (and other languages). As far as I know Oriental TeX is
only concerned with Arabic texts. But it's entirely possible that Urdu
would just
I remember specifically testing some Nastaliq fonts and Hans fixing some
small issues I found, I just tested again now and IranNastaliq seems to
work
OK cool, good to know.
Arthur
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2012/8/2 Arthur Reutenauer arthur.reutena...@normalesup.org:
I remember specifically testing some Nastaliq fonts and Hans fixing some
small issues I found, I just tested again now and IranNastaliq seems to
work
OK cool, good to know.
It's just a matter of a few characters that are used in
On 8/1/2012 6:48 PM, Khaled Hosny wrote:
I remember specifically testing some Nastaliq fonts and Hans fixing some
small issues I found, I just tested again now and IranNastaliq seems to
work (my fork of Nafees Nastaleeq is broken though, but it uses an
OpenType GDEF feature not supported by
Nastaliq OpenType fonts typically use the GPOS LookupType 3 (cursive
attachment), which is not supported by some of the more simple-minded OpenType
Layout engines.
A.
Sent from my mobile phone.
On 02.08.2012, at 04:28, Mike Maxwell maxw...@umiacs.umd.edu wrote:
On 8/1/2012 6:48 PM, Khaled
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