Without the Americans there will be no peace in Ukraine.
It may be that the Russian administration lies, you can hardly trust
them etc., but the American administration is not lying, it refuses to
speak to the Russians since Obama. Obama also managed to humiliate the
Russians as a "provincial state". Biden is not better here either. The
last American president who spoke to Putin was the "much hated" Trump.
The Russians can not agree to NATO membership of Ukraine, just as the
Americans cannot agree with Russian weapons in Cuba or the connection of
the Solomon Islands to China.
So there is at least 3 parties beyond a moral classification in this
conflict: the American, the Ukrainian and the Russian. The European side
is too negligible here, because this is forced to fully integrate the
American wishes. In the discussion, it is dishonest to ask now: "On
which side are you?", Or to interture the subintellectual calculation:
"Do you really want the Russians to kill even more children?" This is
not a level. The only question that needs to be solved is: "How and
under what conditions do we end the war. Or: How and under what
objectives or consequences should the war continue?" There are really
two sides here now. I personally am for a quick war ending; The
conditions that Ukraine would have to bear here in my opinion would be
the constant loss of the Krim, a transition status of the Dombas,
permanent neutrality of Ukraine.
Anyone who chooses the other option accepts that Ukraine is fighting
until it is bled. Then there is also peace. This war could take 1-2 years.
Christoph
wechselstrom
Rasa Smite schrieb:
heath
I am sorry, but your messages don't make any sense, they are full of
"jumbled thoughts", or may be my English is not sophisticated enough
but I don't get your point,
may I make it bit more clear here - that since the Feb 24, 2022 (war
in Ukraine started) there are basically only two sides - either you
support Ukraine's fight to get free from Russia's occupants, or you
accept that Putin's Russia can go on and take the dominance,
continuing to use their worst and most cynical war methods against
civilians in Ukraine - now, and later in other countries.. (they will
never stop, as they never have enough - not only many experts say so,
but also my personal experience - of living my first 20 years in my
life in Russia's occupied Latvia).
there is no other third way, as this is not a democratic country we
deal with, it's based on lies, it always was, and these lies are very
different ones than those in your 'bad' capitalist countries, because
they are really dangerous, 'imperialistic' (as you say) and
chauvinistic, they make other nations they occupy lesser than them,
and make other world to believe their 'cultures' are bigger and
better, while our (other Eastern European, and former occupied
countries) voices then have always been shut up, you were used to call
us "rusophobs", which is totally not the case and never was, many of
my best friends are Russians.
> can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?
of course not! the 'nice' Western people already for too long have
accepted Russia's Kremlin propaganda and their hybrid media wars as in
Baltics, never taking too seriously, and again calling us Rusophobes,
Western countries were always shutting us up when our governments gave
the serious warnings in various (especially recent ones) European
meetings.
so either you listen bit more carefully what the other nations who
have been under long occupation think of the war in Ukraine and Russia
as country,
or you can try yourself to visit Russia and try to figure out what the
140 million people there really think..
or, move to Latvia, if you really want to understand and personally
experience how does it feel to live just 200 km from the border of the
big threatening country, who already occupied us once. it is here very
different feeling to be here - as Latvia (which is rather poor
country) is hosting 40 000 refugees from Ukraine, where my friends are
delivering jeep cars privately to the Ukraine to help them (while
other pacifistic Western European countries deny or delay their
military support), and we do this because at least 30% by official
statistics believe that we will be next... (sooner or later).
so any, even the most tiniest expression or sign of a help or support
such as an art residency or writing activist project, supporting
Ukrainian position is worth it, because it is a simply a humanistic
act, so much needed, as their hearts and lives are broken no matter if
they have escaped, but they are aware of that in their country Russian
militarists continue to kill and rape...
so while pacifism has long way to be achieved, there are humans and
their lives that need any support or a sign of any solidarity now...
any critical skepticism towards those who do something is the least
needed.
Jaanis sent you great sources, you better read them first before
questioning, if they are trustful enough for you.
and last but not least, I also can share my own 'jumbled thoughts' by
referring to Manovich's post in FB, when he said that please consider
that many people (especially young ones) in Russia would prefer to
live in your "rotten" capitalist system. So am I, as I have
experienced both - communist and capitalist governments. And here I am
largely suspicious about your pacifistic ideas, as well as other UK's
May 1st Day activist ambivalent intents (how I call them - marxists
with Porsche): may be you simply don't want countries like Ukraine,
Moldova, Georgia, etc. to share with your capitalist "goods" and
people achieving just to live their normal lives?
best
Rasa
On 16/07/2022 14:49, heath bunting wrote:
jaanis
thanks for links - will take a look - not hopeful for making
good decision on these though, as it takes years of careful scrutiny
to determine whether sources are reliable and not mouthpieces for
in-tell agencies
why does russian state propaganda matter to grass roots activists ?
i would have thought super-state propaganda vs sub-state propaganda
is more relevant
can we not leave nation states to fight it out between themselves ?
overwhelming evidence suggestions that unlawful trans-national
entities such as empires (united state of america empire: USAE) are a
greater threat to individuals/ humanity than lawfully constituted
nation states
what's more of a threat to peace ? 1000 foreign USAE military bases or
2 russian foreign military bases ?
hope all is well
heath
On Sat, 16 Jul 2022, j...@21.x-i.net wrote:
Most of your questions about importance of fighting russian state
propaganda can be answered by these expert resources:
https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/03/08/meduza-is-granting-open-access-to-all-content-about-the-war-in-ukraine-under-a-creative-commons-license
https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/07/12/meduza-is-hiring-a-social-media-editor-for-its-english-language-edition
https://theconversation.com/russias-disappearing-independent-media-why-they-closed-178590
https://netzpolitik.org/2020/russian-disinformation-the-network-of-fake-foreign-media/
https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/the-war-in-ukraine-is-about-the-reunification-of-the-russian-people2
The Russian neo-Nazis fighting Vladimir Putin’s war to ‘denazify’
Ukraine
https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/07/15/dying-to-kill
List of few independent resources in Russian..
https://www.youtube.com/c/Popularpolitics
https://www.youtube.com/c/NevzorovTV
https://www.youtube.com/c/FeyginLive
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzaqqlriSjVyc795m86GVyg
https://www.youtube.com/c/Gordonua
On 16/07/2022 11:03, heath bunting wrote:
geert
supporting Ukrainian media and confronting Russian state propaganda.
these aims appear to be very aligned to imperial interests
what do you mean by ukrainian media ? state/ corporate or grass
roots ?
why is it important to confront russian state propaganda ?
who is at risk of this messaging ?
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______________________________________________
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Info, archive and help:
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______________________________________________
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