Hi Robert and All,
>
> Hello Steve and others!
>
> Some of you are veterans of the endless "exergy"
> wars over at
> sci.energy.hydrogen, and as I have been contributing
something like this:
>
> 1. We have, with current technology, the
> ability to generate electricity
> from solar thermal energy.
>
> a) Aside from the objection concerning
> initial investment, no one
> can successfully deny this is true.
>
> 2. Inexpensive electricity can be generated via
> point focus or trough
> systems that are mass produced to
> create economies of scale are otherwise
> unavailable in current
> market conditions.
There is no thing as inexpensive electricity.
The cost of using that electricity is the price you
casn sell it at, not the price you make it for.
Electricity is a high order energy form because you
can use it directly, eff at 75% or higher.
If you make electricity from hydrogen it takes 3
to 4 times the energy as the electricity.
It goes like this, first the electricity is used
to make H2, 50 to 75 % eff, then the H2 is burned in
an engine or fuel (fool) cell at 35% eff. They never
tell you about all the energy robbing asscessories
that a fuel cell needs.
On the same electricity you can drive an EV 5 to
10 times farther.
>
> a) Mass production CAN profitably
> create point focus solar units
> for less than the cost of an automobile.
Solar cells would cost less that an automobile
too.
>
> b) Investment in such technology would
> be affordable for many
> interested persons, and this makes a
> great deal of economic sense,
> particularly in areas of high
> solar insolation.
Not until the price of electricity goes up a
lot.
>
> 3. A significant portion of the available heat
> energy can be used for
> processes on site, which reduces the
> overall demand for electrical
> power.
Little electricity is used for heating but would
help other fuel sources.
>
> 4. Excess electricity production can be devoted
> to electrolysis for
> hydrogen production, using some of the
> generated thermal energy directly to
> increase the efficiency of
> electrolysis.
There is no thing as excess electricity. See
above.
>
> 5. This hydrogen can be used on site, or
> distributed via pipeline to other
> locations.
But what purpose would you use it. H2 burns
too hot for many purposes. Pipelines are pricy and you
need large ones because H2 low energy/ volume.
>
> a) High temperature processes generate
> hydrogen under pressure,
> eliminating the need for on site
> compressors.
Somewhat but as the H2 cools in the pipeline it
lowers pressure.
>
> b) Hydrogen under moderate pressures
> can be distributed through a
> pipeline network without the risk
> of embrittlement.
While lower pressure helps it increases the
pipeline size again/ unit energy. It doesn't stop H
imbrittlement, just makes it's dangers less while
doubling are tripling the price of the pipeline.
>
> 6. The investment in, and development of, such
> technology and
> infrastructure would create domestic jobs.
Since you need 3 times the energy for the same
power I doubt many jobs would be created.
>
> 7. The ensuing reduction of dependence on
> foreign energy supplies will
> create more stable economic
> development domestically.
I agree 100% but the way is liquid biofuels and
methane rather the H2.
>
> 8. Such a system will produce electricity and
> hydrogen as an energy carrier
> that considerably reduces air
> and water pollution.
Because H2 is so ineff air and water pollution
will go up because if you use the energy more eff than
making H2 you would displace 3 times as much fossil
fuel.
>
> 9. Hydrogen can also be produced from garbage
> and biomass feed stocks that
> are currently wasted,
> increasing overall production and
> reducing landfill usage.
True, but using it to make methane would be much
more useful, eff.
>
> a) Biological production of H2
> is no more difficult than
> biological production of methane.
Your right but it takes more energy to make H2
than methane and you still have the other H2 problems.
> What we need is visionary energy policy. The
> United States could have made
> the necessary investment to
> begin building such an infrastructure for
> considerably less than we spent
> dropping bombs on Iraq. Additionally, the 10
> million windmills that Steve
> mentioned and the electricity they would produce
> would also become less
> expensive, due to economies of scale.
Few people know that we made a profit on the
bombing of Iraq. Arabs paid us.
I agree than we need a new energy policy. Wind is
now down to 3.5 cents/kwhr. Solar thermal plants like
Solar 1/2? are about 4 cents/kwhr. I'm working on
non-dam hydro making electricity for 1 to 2
cents/kwhr.
Add to that biofuels from waste, energy farming
we can create many jobs here instead of shipping our
money and jobs overseas. Write letters to papers and
congress now. I do.
>
> That is an outline of how hydrogen can become
> competitive with energy from
> oil. Please feel free to disagree with any of the
> points I've mentioned (they
> are not mine, I'm merely repeating what I have read
> and heard in over 30 years
> of interest in hydrogen), but don't compare
> electrolytic hydrogen from coal or
> oil fired powerplants (or worse, from
> photovoltaics!) with solar thermal
> electrolytic hydrogen. The key to effective H2
> production lies in using hot,
> concentrated solar processes that thermodynamically
> favor electrolysis and
> answer the exergy issue. We have the technology to
> do this right now--not in
> thirty years.
Not without wasting a lot of money.
>
> Whenever I mention this over at
> sci.energy.hydrogen the silence from people
> whose education and experience far exceeds my own
> simply astonishes me.
>
> Now, can we return to talking about biofuels?
We are.
jerry dycus
>
> robert luis rabello
>
>
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