Keith Addison wrote:
> Of course you're right about the DDG, Motie, with ethanol you get it
> both ways - and Pimental doesn't know that, along with a lot of other
> things it seems he doesn't know? He does know it. The trouble is you
> soon hit another obstacle - Pimental's "studies" are much used by
> vegetarian and vegan activists who're after saving the world by
> eradicating livestock farming. Pimentel says: "With the world
> population at 5.5 billion, food production is adequate to feed 7
> billion people a vegetarian diet, with ideal distribution and no
> grain fed to livestock."
Like many positions, this one has SOME truth in it. We Americans have been
raised with the belief that we "grow enough food to feed the world."
Unfortunately, much of the grain we grow goes toward feeding cattle, pigs and
poultry, rather than directly feeding people. Therefore, much of the non-dairy
produce in our supermarkets comes from somewhere else and is trucked or shipped
a
VERY LONG (energy intensive) distance to feed us. One of the many problems with
this agricultural model is that it's built upon and perpetuates the myth that
"modern" factory agriculture is superior when it comes to producing food for
people. In reality, much of that food feeds livestock. We certainly would
have a
HUGE surplus of grain if we fed only people with what we grow.
While there is some justification that vegetarian diets are healthier than
non
vegetarian diets (I have been a vegetarian for almost 40 years), the idea that
we'll "run out of food" if we don't persist with our current agricultural
paradigm
is a difficult idea to sell to the average person. We've been raised on "the
four
food groups", two of which happen to consist of dairy products, and nobody
questioned that the organization supplying this information might have a vested,
economic interest in increasing the money we spend buying meat, milk, eggs and
cheese. Didn't anyone ever wonder why half of our diet was supposed to come
directly from animals? (When I look at myself, I think I'd make a LOUSY
predator!)
Meanwhile, factory farming reduces tilth, increases dependence on chemical
fertilizers and pesticides, giving us lower quality food that is primarily fed
to
animals in HUGE feed lots that produce way more waste than the local environment
can handle. We ship the grain over great distances to the feed lots, then ship
the cattle, hogs and chickens to slaughter, then ship the carcasses to
distribution centers and on to the stores where most of us buy our food. This
is
a very energy intensive business, and I can't help but think that a change in
paradigm is necessary to improve our standard of living, health, improve local
economies and help local farmers survive.
>
> Some people really hate it (and hate me) when I say these things, but
> there is no sustainable way of raising plants without animals. There
> is no traditional farming system that doesn't used animals, and never
> has been. It just doesn't work - soil fertility sooner or later
> fails, and then everything else fails too. Likewise in nature mixed
> farming is the rule, plants are always found with animals. God can't
> do it, and neither can we.
Some of us think that God actually MADE things this way, but that doesn't
really inform the excellent point you bring up. I don't oppose people eating
meat
and animal products. I am, however, vehemently opposed to the current manner in
which this is done. Huge feed lots blight the landscape in California. They're
ugly and they stink! Ground water contamination becomes a serious problem
because
of their effluent. Further, the operators of these feed lots must inoculate the
cattle against all manner of disease because in no other environment on earth do
creatures live in such close proximity. (I have spoken to hunters who will not
eat livestock because they've told me they can taste the chemicals in the meat.)
The problems with this type of livestock raising are manifold.
This is not the kind of mixed farming you're advocating. The animals in
feed
lots are segregated from the land that supports them. They are not utilizing
those parts of the plants we cannot digest, nor are they benefiting from our
husbandry. We, in turn, cannot benefit from the all products (especially their
waste) given to us while the animals are living--we take mostly those derived
from
their slaughter. Our current factory farming model is seriously flawed. We
need
to change the way we think.
(WARNING--Socio-political rant ahead. . .) Maybe we should get rid of ALL
subsidies. Maybe we should redistribute land so that people who want to farm
can
get 10 affordable and arable acres of land. Then, and only then, let the market
select those who survive and weed out those who don't.
> It's absolutely no use trying to argue with these people - it's not
> rational, it's a moral crusade, and if you don't agree, then you're
> the enemy.
I don't eat meat, but I hear you. We don't have to agree on something silly
like diet. It's nice, however, to read an intelligent discussion of this issue.
> Well, I just hope somebody will save the world from these people -
> all the Third World needs is this kind of bent-headed crap. Just to
> put that little quote above from Pimental in perspective, there's
> enough food available to provide at least 4.3 pounds of food per
> person a day worldwide: two and half pounds of grain, beans and nuts,
> about a pound of fruits and vegetables, and nearly another pound of
> meat, milk and eggs - enough to make most people fat. No need to cut
> the meat. "With ideal distribution", Pimental says, as if it's but a
> simple matter, whereas in fact it's the whole problem, the only
> reason people go hungry - an inequitable economic system.
Precisely! That's where our moral outrage needs to be aimed.
>
> I'm not against vegetarianism, or vegetarians, but I am against
> vegetarian farming systems being promoted as sustainable, they're
> simply not, and I'm very against the idea of their being promoted as
> the solution - the only solution - to Third World poverty and world
> hunger.
It's nice to know you're not my enemy!!! Third World poverty and hunger are
two issues that are much too complex to be addressed with simple fixes like
changing a farming system. Besides, you're right about vegetarian farming
systems. I have an uncle in Brasil who farms on the fringes of Belo Horizonte,
and he laughs at the way we farm in North America. Once, while we were driving
through the rice paddies in Northern California he remarked: "California is
exporting its soil. What will you do when it runs out?" I didn't understand
what
he was saying then, but I'm better informed now, and his words no longer seem
like
the envious rant of a poor, uneducated Third World farmer.
>
> Enough of that. But there may be a similar problem with this
> anti-ethanol guy and his website in Winnebago. Moral
> self-righteousness backed by ignorance - he'll probably just go into
> denial. But don't be put off, he needs to be told the error of his
> ways, the more publicly the better.
>
There's an awful lot of bad publicity about the energy balance of grain
ethanol. Your site is one of the few advocating it. Ethanol also carries more
political baggage than biodiesel or SVO, which don't seem to raise the ire of
government as much as the prospect that I might do something other than pour
that
liquid sunshine into the fuel tank of my truck. I joined this list to learn
more
about ethanol production. While the idea of locally grown, fermented and
distilled fuel appeals to me, it doesn't seem as practical as biodiesel or SVO.
Sigh! I don't own a diesel. . .
robert luis rabello
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