Jon wrote: > > They don't appear to think it will bugger up the pump. > >Ask any proffessional diesel mechanic what the top 2 things that cause >injector pump damage are... they will respond with water and dirt. Why do >you think the fuel filters are designed to collect water? > >If you dont take their word for it.. ask Bosch, Lucas, Perkins, Peugeot... I >have been trained by these people, every one of them makes a very big point >that water must be kept out of the injection pump at all costs... I have >seen to outcome of water getting into my customers pumps, and its always >turned out to be expensive.
You're talking about a different thing, as I just said elsewhere. Again, however: "Following is a list of studies that are being considered for inclusion in work being done by EPA to assess the effects of water-fuel emulsions on emissions of oxides of nitrogen (NOx), hydrocarbons (HC), and particulate matter (PM)." http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/emulsion/emulbibl.pdf It's an emulsion, dissolved water, not free, different matter. Water dissolved in biodiesel without the need for an emulsion is also a different matter. But I see you realise this, with your backtrack below. Good, okay. > > We know about water injection in gasoline engines, it's been much > > discussed here and many people have tested it. See: > >I would agree, I fitted several systems and developed my own controller for >turbo applications on gas engines.. > > > It seems a lot of people wouldn't agree with you about water > > injection in diesels: > >My main conscern is the water entering through the injector pump where its >not advised... I can see advantages to water being part of the combustion >mix through... I can see this thread may become a can of worms, just as >water injection (via the intake runners, not the pump) is a "can of worms" >issue in the diesel world... > >One of the reasons for Turbo diesel tuners (in the performance use of the >word tuners) using water injection is to cool the intake charge... a cool >intake charge is more dense, and therefore you increase the amount of oxygen >drawn for combustion, for the same reason intercoolers are used... In my own >experience, the best resaults for water misting , on a TD are when "just >enough" water is used to ensure cooling of the charge, but not enough that >water enters the engine in an atomised form.... once water is introduced to >combustion in an atomised form, more power is lost due to a slower burn >(caused by the water) than is gained by the increased charge density.... on >gas engines things are very different, as some atomised water during >combustion is desirable to retard the higher burn speed of the higher >dynamic compression caused by the boost, and to cool hotspots which set off >pre-ignition. > >If power in a TD or straight D was not the ultimate conscern, there are some >benefits to water injection... not least the fact that the water can help >remove carbon build-up or used to prevent carbon building up.. > >With water injection on a diesel engine, its a game of swings and >roundabouts.. you make a gain here... you see a loss there... its always >very difficult to see the wood for the trees... Biodiesel has a higher cetane number, so there's perhaps room for some loss there without sacrificing anything overall, and perhaps making worthwhile gains elsewhere. Interesting what you say re carbon buildup. There are still people who claim biodiesel causes excess carbonisation, though everyone who has their motor stripped reports clean motors and amazed mechanics who think the odometer must be broken. This from Biofuels-biz: >A water mist is helpful in moderating combustion and boosting output >under come circumstances, but it, too, must be used with caution to >prevent corrosion of the upper cylinder. Basically, you start then >engine "dry" and start the mist only when it is fully warmed up. You >stop the mist before stopping the engine, giving time for any condensed >water in the intake manifold to vaporize and go through the engine. > >Marc de Piolenc Jon: >1 >I have given this some thought today... and perhaps I am backtracking... but >I can see advantage with water injection (sepparate from the injection pump) >mostly in TD applications.... I can also see that if an agent is used, water >in the fuel may not be harmfull to the injection pump... but what I am sure >of... straight water, in straight diesel.. is not good to your pump... Nobody's suggesting that. >if >someone has an additive to allow water to pass through a pump without >causing damage.... then thats great... I just wont be using it on my own >vehicles just yet :o) It seems a lot of folks are investigating it now. Did you see the other reference I gave, about the bus company trialing a water-fuel emulsion in Australia? I would like to know the findings of some of the studies listed in the EPA report. > > Any input for us on these issues Jon? > >I can see more benefits from mixing ethanol with the BD than I can see with >premixing water with BD (or just leaving some wash water in your BD)... >Ethanol would not cause problems for an injection pump, would thin down the >BD closer to the viscosity of the dino diesel that the injectors are >designed for (off the shelf), and would reduce some of the winter worries of >BD... but too much ethanol could be damaging to the engine causing >ultrasonic detonation (ricardo wave).. Check out the ACREVO study I mentioned. They got big benefits mixing 9% of 95% ethanol with rapeseed oil. >I was interested to read about the effects of BD mixing with water so well >in comparison with dinoD.. I think I would need to give serious thought to >the whole subject.. and perhaps run some experiments... my conscern isnt >with how well the water is retained in the BD without seperation, but with >if the water content of this mix would cause damage through oxidisation of >the pump components (even a minute amound of oxidisation of the pump >internals will destroy it)... Do you think dissolved water would manage to oxidise anything much in the presence of very much larger amounts of high-lubricity BD? (Anyway, is water more corrosive than methanol? - though there shouldn't be any non-reacted methanol, but there'll be a bit.) Ed Beggs just posted this to the Biofuels-biz group: >Since rapeseed oil was used to lubricate steam engines, because of its >properties of clinging to cylinder walls and resisting being washed off by >steam... > >"The crop has undergone a great metamorphosis in quality and production >since it was first grown as an emergency war measure on a few acres in 1942. >At that time, rapeseed oil was considered an essential lubricant because it >could cling to water- and steam-washed metal surfaces better than any other >oil. Since the naval ships and trains of the time were steam-powered, and >with the European and Asian rape oil supplies cut off, Canada was asked to >undertake production. " > >http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1990/v1-211.html > > and since we have evidence of how incredibly lubricating it is, > >"In the case of biodiesel oil made from canola, the University of >Saskatchewan has shown that a 1% addition to petroleum diesel fuel would >help reduce engine wear by 40%" > >http://www.agr.gc.ca/misb/spcrops/framework_e.phtml#3.2.1 > > I wonder if the potential for water corrosion is reduced by the presence of >that oil, versus the fossil diesel. > >Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca If it's not canola biod, less lubricity, but still very much higher than dino, especially low-sulphur dino. If you'd already added 10% ethanol (say 90 or 95%), that would reduce the viscosity, as you say. You could probably get quite a lot more water to dissolve in the ethanol-biod blend, and if you weren't confident about it not oxidising the pump, add 1% virgin rapeseed oil, or more. The extra viscosity wouldn't hurt because the ethanol would have lowered the viscosity anyway. Better everything. Best of all worlds? >its all very thought provoking though... Yes, isn't it? Keith >Jon Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
