Keith-
Thanks for your comments and the very helpful links. I would very much
like to carry on this discussion on the agricultural aspects of oil production
after I have had a chance to study the links and other information in more
detail.
Bruce Colley, Sustainable Energy Project www.sustainableenergyproject.org
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Addison
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
Hello Bruce
>Ed-
> Your insights into these issues is helpful to me, and I'm sure,
>to others. (I am aware of some of your work in this area, as some
>months ago your partner Craig made me aware of your Master's thesis
>and I actually read it!)
> I would love to top Alex's 300,000 km benchmark, but it will
>take some time at the rate that I drive. Like him, I am not using
>any WVO, as I want to take a very conservative approach to this, and
>that may help to extend the life of my engine. However, there is
>another reason that I don't use WVO (and this may be worthy of
>another discussion thread.) In my work, I am attempting to develop
>and espouse a model of worldwide personal transportation
>sustainability, and also practice what I preach. The limited volume
>of WVO simply does not lend itself to such a model. I have serious
>doubts as to whether even Canola, sunflower, camelina sativa or any
>other annual row crop can be justified in such a worldwide model, as
>these would compete with food crops if produced on a very large
>scale, they use considerable energy to produce, and require water,
>weeding, and pest control.
It can be done sustainably, but indeed not via industrialised
monocropping. I said this before: "If you just swap fuels instead of
changing the entire disaster you'll end up with wall-to-wall
industrialized monocrops of GMO soy and canola. Big Biofuels may not
turn out to be much better than Big Oil. Silly thing about it is that
industrialized monocropping of biofuels crops would be (is) just as
fossil-fuel-dependent as industrialized monocropping of anything else
is. What's the use of finding a cure for cancer if it gives you a
heart attack?"
You can find messages in the list archives from organic farmers in
the US raising maize and soy at equal or better yields than the
so-called "conventional" chemicalised farmers next door with their
much higher fossil-fuel inputs and higher costs too, and without the
externalised costs associated with chemicalised farming practices,
such as depleted soil (the farm's capital). I've proposed, and others
have agreed, that it's quite possible to raise energy crops without
the use of any dedicated land at all or dedicated anything else, as
by-products of the ever-changing cropping patterns used on
sustainable, integrated farms, and without any fossil-fuel inputs.
Don't forget a lot of those "food crops" aren't really food crops at
all. This is worth a look:
Food or Fuel?
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html#grainexports
On "How much fuel can we grow?" and "How much land will it take?",
you might find these previous posts of interest:
http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUELS-BIZ/1395/
http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUELS-BIZ/1801/
>When there are hardy perennial oil producing plants like Jatropha
>that grow for up to 50 years in otherwise unusable soil in semi arid
>climates with virtually no maintenance requirements, and also can
>serve to as a natural fence, wind break and source of medicinal
>compounds, it seems like that is where the focus should be (and I am
>in the process of importing some seeds, planning a trip to Africa,
>and otherwise investigating this.)
I agree with you, very much, but with the reservation that, for all
jatropha's advantages, and those of other similar crops, there's no
single "best" answer to this. Each situation requires a different
solution, or at least a fresh appraisal, and local involvement is
essential at all levels, including all decisions and choices. There
are almost always local energy crops, or weeds, or wild plants, that
could be exploited, and past experience with rural development
projects shows that such local resources usually perform better than
imports such as jatropha or whatever, regardless of yields. If, that
is, by "performance" one means overall community benefit. Which you
do mean.
> I am also approaching the longevity issue from an entirely
>different angle. I have developed a generator powered by a Kubota
>diesel engine. The engine was sent to Elsbett in Germany for
>conversion to SVO and I am very pleased with its performance. The
>generator can be used for stand alone power generation, but was
>really developed with the idea of incorporating it into a hybrid
>electric vehicle. With such a system, one can get into a vehicle
>and drive away on battery power while using the propulsion battery
>pack to preheat the oil, or better still, preheat the entire engine,
>as considerable engine wear and emissions occur when starting a cold
>engine. The engine is then run at a nearly constant power level
>that is at or close to optimum levels for fuel economy and
>emissions. Needless to say, engine longevity in such an engine run
>in this manner could be very impressive.
Nice project!
>As experience with gasoline hybrids has proved, high fuel economy is
>also achieved, and a diesel hybrid could achieve really eye popping
>fuel economy.
The three vehicles developed in the US under the abandoned PNGV
program all achieved 80mpg and they were all diesel-electric hybrids.
There are some details here:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html
Do diesels have a future?
>Combine this with fuel from perennial oil producing plants that grow
>on otherwise unusable land and things might really begin to look
>interesting.
Indeed things would!
Best wishes
Keith
>Bruce Colley Sustainable Energy Project www.sustainableenergyproject.org
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc
> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
>
>
> Ok, thanks again -yes, it's likely that Alex does use only new oil, I
> believe that is what is recommended for that system, and it would be
> affordable in Germany especially for him to do so, and they do have it
> in bulk, for sale, at their location (and SVO is for sale at quite a
> few other bulk locations and pumps in Germany)
>
> ...it's not taxed as fuel, considered to be the same benefits, more or
> less as biodiesel, whereas petrodiesel is heavily taxed, so of the
> three new oil (SVO) is the cheapest (and maybe overall, also the least
> subsidized?!)
>
> In Canada and the USA, of course, new oil is still more money than
> diesel fuel, but actually the gap is closing, so perhaps it's possible
> for more people to start looking at greater use of new, cold pressed
> oils (not soy) here, or perhaps at least looking at a blend of new oil
> (Costco Canola, or Sunflower) and good WVO, as a cost-effective and
> technically better option than just using WVO.
>
> If it's affordable, do it, I would have to say, and especially if your
> best local option for WVO, after really checking around, is still not
> so good.
>
> Blending with new oil will thin the WVO, and the cold pressed is nice -
> also the new food grade oil (not cold pressed) maybe has a few
> advantages, as well. It has after all been degummed, bleached,
> deodorized, winterized - the Wonder Bread of cooking oils...Not so
> tasty, but good for a fryer and pretty good stuff for blending with
> WVO, IMHO, for reduced viscosity, FFA compensation/correction to closer
> to neutral pH, etc.
>
>
> New cold pressed high oleic sunflower and WVO, 50/50, would be good.
> Also it would be good to see more happening with Camelina Sativa (false
> flax, pleasure-of-gold), since it can be grown in the same field at the
> same time as other crops (peas for example) eliminating the use of
> herbicide via it's shading/weed suppression between rows, and you can
> get the same yield of peas as always, produce both oil energy crop and
> field crop, and get a light oil suitable for blending and helpful in
> cold weather.
>
> And BTW, the level of sophistication and engineering that you mentioned
> is proportionate to the type of conversion:
>
> - extended time glow plugs would be single tank, yes. Not needed for
> two-tank.
> - injector modifications and rechipping or other modification of the
> fuel injection computer would be needed in some instances, not in
> others.
>
> What *is* needed for all conversions, we feel, and what we provide
> with our kits, is a very large filter area, for long filter element
> life, and cost effectively done, *even when* using WVO that has not
> been pre-filtered
>
> Also, for the WVO, a water separator is a very good idea, of course
> (integrated into the onboard fuel processor is even better, since it's
> then compact and easily installed - that's what we provide)
>
> - a robust, solid state electric heater with enough output to
> effectively heat the oil to ~ 70C;
>
> - a coolant-heated SVO filter;
>
> - larger fuel line for the SVO (we now use 1/2" insulhose on all
> kits, to provide unrestricted flow in all cases),
>
> OPTIONALLY,
>
> , an extra inline electric heater, a tank heater (electric pad, 12V or
> 120V, or coolant operated, like our Hotstk);
>
> - full-heated-path SVO line, and so on. The requirements for the
> optional items vary with the application.
>
> How well single tank systems will work depends on the level of
> conversion done, the options used, the oil used, the climate, and the
> engine type. We are doing some single tank systems, just looking into
> doing single tank TDi, especially in California and other places where
> the climate and the availability of good liquid WVO or "flush oil" from
> the large food oil processors will support that application.
>
> The warm climate will help you next winter, Bruce, but I think it's
> going to be important to realize the need for oil that will stay liquid
> and combust easily with that system.
>
> It's not the same at all, trying to start an engine on a nice light
> new oil, versus some partly hydrogenated WVO...the degree of
> degradation will be even more important to be aware of.
>
> keep us all posted, and let us know when you've topped Alex's numbers!
>
> cheers,
>
>
> Edward Beggs
> http://www.biofuels.ca
>
>
> On Thursday, May 13, 2004, at 09:51 AM, Bruce Colley wrote:
>
> > Ed-
> > It is a single tank system. I believe that he uses only rapeseed
> > oil, and no WVO.
> > Bruce Colley, Sustainable Energy Project
> > www.sustainableenergyproject.org
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc
> > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 6:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Bruce. Was that single tank or two-tank?
> >
> > Edward Beggs
> > http://www.biofuels.ca
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, May 12, 2004, at 11:15 PM, Bruce Colley wrote:
> >
> >> Alexander Noack, senior engineer at Elsbett, recently told me that
> >> they disassembled his Jetta TDI engine after 300,000 km (186,000 mi.)
> >> with the following results:
> >> -No detectible cylinder wear
> >> -No injector coking
> >> -Overall excellent condition
> >> I think that this speaks to the validity of the Elsbett
> >> system: Electric preheater, fuel-coolant heat exchanger, modification
> >> of injectors, upgrading of glow plugs, and modification of engine
> >> computer control settings. If an engine/injector pump doesn't lend
> >> itself to viable conversion, then they don't attempt to convert it.
> >> If they do, then they engineer and test the system to verify proper
> >> operation. So far, I am impressed by my Elsbett Jetta TDI conversion,
> >> but it is quite recent and I haven't gone through the winter yet.
> >> Bruce Colley Sustainable Energy Project
> >> www.sustainableenergyproject.org
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc
> >> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 6:25 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
> >>
> >>
> >> Tom:
> >>
> >> First, I will say that we have always stated that WVO (Waste
> >> Vegetable
> >> Oil) or new plant oil conversion systems are to be considered
> >> experimental and do not have millions of miles of testing that
> >> biodiesel has had, at least not yet.
> >>
> >> The interest and the funding shifted to biodiesel early on, it
> >> seems,
> >> after the tests in the early 80's, which went more or less along the
> >> lines of:
> >>
> >> 1.Fill tank of then-current technology direct injection engine with
> >> sunflower or soy oil (most often, it seems) and see what happens.
> >>
> >> 2. Wait for a high incidence of failures.
> >>
> >> 3. Write the report: "does not work very well or for very long".
> >>
> >> I have no doubt that the researchers were sincere and reported
> >> accurately, but at least in the studies from that era that I have
> >> read
> >> there were some common themes which are not reflective of the way
> >> things are done now which are thought to improve the results.
> >>
> >> Notably:
> >>
> >> - there never seems to be mention of preheating the vegetable oil,
> >> to
> >> reduce viscosity and thus make it easier on the lift pump, injection
> >> pump, and also improve atomisaiton. That's the single biggest
> >> change,
> >> which seems to improve results.
> >>
> >> - the oils chosen were often less than ideal. According to the
> >> information I have, oils such as Canola/rapeseed/mustard, coconut,
> >> high
> >> oleic sunflower (recent) might have yielded better results.
> >>
> >> - the engines were often older type direct injection engines that
> >> did
> >> not have the sort of (with variations, of course) two-stage (pilot
> >> injection) high pressure, computer controlled systems we have today,
> >> nor the sort of combustion chamber designs that exist today. They
> >> were
> >> of course also not indirect injection engines (which many say will
> >> give
> >> better results on plant oils than direct injection). There have been
> >> quite successes in the use of indirect injection engines.
> >>
> >> - there was no mention made of using two tanks, for easier starting,
> >> operation of the engine on lighter fuel (diesel or biodiesel) until
> >> it
> >> was hot, and no purge cycle, again on the lighter and more
> >> combustible
> >> fuel, before shutdown.
> >>
> >> - also there is no mention of use of techniques such as blends of
> >> plant
> >> oils with solvents and cosolvents, in combination with preheating,
> >> as
> >> was done in some of the more recent, and very successful, trials of
> >> the
> >> ACREVO study, which is on our web site (blending 9% ethanol into
> >> rapeseed oil, preheating to 80C, and use in a small displacement
> >> direct
> >> injection engine yielded very good results)
> >>
> >> Regarding Shaine Tyson's comments, I am not sure how recent the
> >> study
> >> is that is mentioned, but if recent, then perhaps to put in proper
> >> context, I'd ask this:
> >>
> >> - were there a lot of premature failures documented, or is it just
> >> that
> >> these are mostly relatively recent conversions (most SVO conversions
> >> and kits having been done only since 2000 or so) and so the miles
> >> have
> >> not been accumulated yet, and there is insufficient data to come to
> >> any
> >> conclusion about the effectiveness of the use of, in particular,
> >> preheating and two-tank systems, for DI and IDI engines? If there
> >> was a
> >> high incidence of failures, were the causes examined? What were the
> >> failures modes? What would they be attributed to? If examined, were
> >> solutions sought?
> >>
> >> RE: "my list" - I don't *have* a list - that's the point - we need
> >> one
> >> at this point in time. And, BTW, dozens of examples would be a
> >> decent
> >> start, but not enough to really show anything. It'd be a start,
> >> though,
> >> if we did have a good list of at least that, a few dozen examples of
> >> SVO high-milers. That's what I was looking for help in compiling.
> >> It's
> >> mentioned now and then, and we see a few attempts, but I have not
> >> yet
> >> seen a serious effort at compiling a list of documented high-mileage
> >> successes, in the way that positive results were compiled for
> >> biodiesel, for example, while that was under development. It'd be
> >> nice
> >> to see it get a little more attention, especially in English, and
> >> especially in North America, I think.
> >>
> >> RE: "something funny" at 100,000-150,000 miles...well, no, I don't
> >> think there is any magic number: we have all seen the reports and
> >> horror stories about engines being ruined by use of plant oils in
> >> short
> >> order - so many hours, so many miles - again, mostly of the sort and
> >> from the era and conditions mentioned above
> >>
> >> ...but then we seem now to also be hearing more and more of better
> >> long
> >> term results than predicted - so far, too much anecdotally.
> >>
> >> That needs to be examined in more detail. If there are getting to
> >> be a
> >> good number of successes in teh longer term, how are they being
> >> accomplished? What are the best practices? Of course, I have my own
> >> ideas on that, as do many others, and some have been incorporated
> >> into
> >> kits, some would be related to engine type, conditions of use, type
> >> of
> >> fuel oil used, type of lubricating oil used, and so on.
> >>
> >> Those need to be examined again - if something seems to be working
> >> (i.e. there is progress being made), then find out what it is. If
> >> there
> >> are still, after doing those things, problem areas, identify them,
> >> see
> >> what can be done about them, or might be, or identify the knowledge
> >> gaps.
> >>
> >> You know, SVO has been written into the European Union rules as an
> >> acceptable alternative fuel, alongside many others, including
> >> biodiesel.
> >>
> >> An original Elsbett engine in a Mercedes has recently, it is
> >> reported,
> >> gone over one million (!!) kilometers on vegetable oil. That's was a
> >> direct injection engine, and it is also said that much of the
> >> technology used in that engine's injector and combustion chamber
> >> design
> >> found its way into the TDI many years later!
> >>
> >> RE: the rumours of "horrors of TDI" conversion....I am not sure
> >> what
> >> you refer to here, I have not heard much of this. I do know that the
> >> TDI runs cool, does not generate a lot of waste heat, and so if run
> >> under light loads on poorly heated oil, that could be a problem. I
> >> have
> >> been told they have a tendency to "coke up", even on diesel fuel -
> >> at
> >> least that's what my VW-dealer-mechanic friend told me, and I
> >> suspect
> >> that would be worse if they are run under light loads or in the city
> >> a
> >> lot. So, the preheating, electric preheating, and two tank (on
> >> diesel
> >> or biodiesel until the engine gets hotter), would help in that, I
> >> would
> >> think.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Edward Beggs
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tuesday, May 11, 2004, at 04:23 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >>> Ed-
> >>>
> >>> I think I should step gingerly here, I know you promote WVO
> >>> conversion
> >>> systems. However, I refer to Shaine Tyson, late of the National
> >>> Renewable Energy
> >>> Laboratory who gave a talk in Connecticut last year, stating that in
> >>> all of the
> >>> national research, only one truck was found that had lasted 150,000
> >>> miles on
> >>> SVO. How does this square with your list? Are you starting out with
> >>> dozens of
> >>> examples, or is it a short list? Something funny happen over 100,000
> >>> and under
> >>> 150,000, or is this technology particularly hard on direct injection
> >>> engines?
> >>> We want to know the real value of this technology. Are the rumors
> >>> about the
> >>> horrors of TDI conversions true? Why, what goes wrong?
> >>>
> >>> Tom Leue
> >>>
> >>> In a message dated 5/11/04 2:10:49 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Hi all,
> >>>>
> >>>> I often get asked how many engines, specifically modern direct
> >>>> injection engines, I know of, that have gone more than the magic
> >>>> number
> >>>> (for some reason) of 100,000 miles (yes, miles, not kilometers,
> >>>> please...so, let's say over 160,000 km)
> >>>>
> >>>> I know I could spend hours scouring the databases, such as they
> >>>> exist,
> >>>> translating from German sites, etc. etc...but if anyone needs a good
> >>>> research project for academic work, this is one!!
> >>>>
> >>>> Or, if you just want to send me notice of examples of such that you
> >>>> are
> >>>> aware of, please do!
> >>>>
> >>>> Please exclude old Mercedes.....I know there are lots of those that
> >>>> have gone that far...I am looking for TDI's, modern trucks,
> >>>> equivalent
> >>>> hours on gensets or tractors (let's see...1600 hours at 100
> >>>> km/h....ok,
> >>>> let's say over 1600 hours), etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll compile these as they come in, unless someone out there can set
> >>>> up
> >>>> a self-admin database for us, which would be a heck of a lot easier,
> >>>> and more accessible for all....
> >>>>
> >>>> The SVO 100,000 Mile Club Database.....anyone up for doing that?
> >>>>
> >>>> We can host it on our server space if need be, I think.
> >>>>
> >>>> Spread the word? Help get it going?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thank you!
> >>>>
> >>>> Edward Beggs
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----------------------------
> >>> Homestead Inc.
> >>> www.yellowbiodiesel.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>
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Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
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