Hallo All, I thought this may be of some interest to some on the list. I know it is something I have wondered about for a good while now.
Happy Happy, Gustl This is a forwarded message From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Gustl Steiner-Zehender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, 27 May, 2004, 23:57:57 Subject: : Re: [WoodGas] Re: -----hydrocarbon cracking ==============Original message text=============== [Gustl, if you'd like to forward this to the Biofuel list you'd be more than welcome. - K] Hello Gustl >Keith, > >When I first joined the biodiesel lists I asked about deodorizing the >glycerine but was told it couldn't be done. Now this fellow, Marc, is >talking about the glycerine being used for all sorts of things >including soaps which, in my view, wouldn't fly with the odor it has. >Has anyone come up with something I have missed and has a method of >deodorizing the glycerine? Marc's right, glycerine is a valuable product with many uses. To the extent that the commercial soapmakers remove it from the soap because they can get better prices for it elsewhere - for instance in the form of skin softeners and so on to counter the effects of all that harsh glycerine-free soap! Ain't capitalism wonderful! But how valuable and useful it might be to us is another matter. I've thought of deodorising the by-product by filtering it through charcoal, but I never tried it because I think it's the wrong problem. Note I said "by-product", not glycerine: generally we talk of the by-product or the "glycerine cocktail". What drops out of a biodiesel reaction is not only glycerine, or often not even mainly glycerine. This is from our website: "What sinks to the bottom of the biodiesel processor during the settling stage is a mixture of glycerine, methanol, soaps and the lye catalyst. Most of the excess methanol and most of the catalyst remains in this layer." And: "A commonly asked question: How much glycerine do you get? A better question would be: How much of the "glycerine layer" is actually glycerine? The rule of thumb is 79 milliliters of glycerine per liter of oil used -- 7.9%. In fact there's usually more soap -- the "glycerine" layer is more of a "soap" layer than anything else. Unless you use Aleks Kac's "Foolproof" acid-base two-stage process, that is..." -- From: Separating glycerine http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#separate If you do just that, separate the by-product into it's different components as described there, you get three layers: on top, the soaps, converted back into Free Fatty Acids (in making biodiesel you remove the FFAs from the reaction by converting them to soaps, this converts them back again); below that, a layer of glycerine, maybe 85-95% pure (this layer contains the excess methanol, which can now be reclaimed for re-use); and on the bottom the catalyst, in the form of a layer of sodium or potassium phosphate salts. The important bit - once the methanol is removed, this separated glycerine doesn't smell much. The smell goes with the FFAs. It's the soaps in the by-product that smell, more than the glycerine. Problem solved. Or is it? Not really... You can't make soap out of glycerine. You can add it to soap, but if the soap already contains the glycerine content of the oil/fat it was produced from, it probably won't need any more. There's an upper limit to the glycerine content of soap and it's not very high - it's an alcohol after all. Can you sell it? Yes, in theory - but in the US anyway, only by the container-load, unless you find a special outlet. If it were really pure, 99%+, you might have more luck, but that means distilling it, and the boiling point is 290 deg C, 554 deg F, needs lots of energy. Purpose-built solvent purification distillers are rather expensive. It might though be worth putting this separated glycerine through a carbon filter. As for making soap with any of this stuff, not so easy. The by-product as-is, the whole cocktail, is a powerful degreaser (remove the methanol first), but not exactly a soap. Too alkaline, for one thing, harsh, with all that lye still in there. There are people who say they make soap out of it, and you can do that, but it's low-grade soap, not something you'd want to sell. The commercial soapmakers make soap out of Free Fatty Acids, but I don't think you'd have much success on a kitchen or backyard scale - you might get soap, I suppose, but again, low-grade, and, your original problem, it'll smell of WVO. In the trade this stuff is produced by deacidifying virgin oil to meet food-grade standards and so on, it's called soapstock or foots, and there isn't a very good market for it. It makes good heating fuel though (in a Turk burner or something similar), and it can be used for pre-heating WVO for making biodiesel. The third layer at the bottom when you separate the by-product cocktail, the catalyst, is probably the easiest bit to sell. It's one of the reasons commercial biodiesel producers prefer using KOH to NaOH as the catalyst. When you use phosphoric acid to separate the by-product components, this leaves you with potassium phosphates, which can be reclaimed and sold as chemical fertiliser. The relative value of all of these options will vary according to the individual operation, and they're worth exploring. We don't use any of them, preferring to use the by-product as-is for heating, complete with the excess methanol. We don't have a disposal or recycling or resale problem with it, we use it all up. >Hope you are well and happy friend. Yes thankyou Gustl, I hope you are too. >You never cease to amaze me. >Please keep doing so. :o) :-) I'll try. Regards Keith >Happy Happy, > >Gustl > >This is a forwarded message >From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Marc Orion Cardoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: Thursday, 27 May, 2004, 19:54:13 >Subject: [WoodGas] Re: -----hydrocarbon cracking > >==============Original message text=============== >Hallo Marc, > >Thursday, 27 May, 2004, 14:09:42, you wrote: > >...snip... >MOC> glycerine is a very valuable by product used in >MOC> industry,cosmetics,sweeteners, and in the health food business and >MOC> the soap that also results is also highly valuable especially >MOC> the "hand made" soaps that are found in high end stores.. , the >...snip... > >This is something I have been wondering about. How does one, or is it >even possible to, neutralize the odor of french fries, fish, donuts, >etc. in the end product? I am on some biodiesel lists and so far no >one has been able to answer this question including Keith at Journey >to Forever. > >If it is possible I would really like to know how to do it. I have >thought of making soap with the glycerine but can think of only a very >few people who would like fish or french fry scented soap. > >Any help would be greatly appreciated friend. > >Happy Happy, > >Gustl ===========End of original message text=========== -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli ******** The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters" ******** Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewšhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. ******** Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. 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