Hello Keith ! Of course there is a possibility that unsaturated compounds interact in the lubricating oil, but if the engine«s combustion is proper, you do not have to expect big problems. But, there are other ways for the fuel to get in contact with the engine oil: It the engine is equipped with a row pump, with one pump element per injector, there is a possibility (due to construction error) that some of the fuel slips by the pump piston entering the engine oil. Some engine manufacturers refuse to acknowledge biodiesel, because once in the oil, it will not vaporise the way ordinary diesel engine fuel does. But the to be on the safe side, cut the oil change intervals by half, which is recommended by many engine manufacturers. Maybe you even can get Castrol to analyse samples of your oil and look for signs of polymerisation. You can safely assume that the EN 14214 is technically founded, although it has its shortcomings. For info on me with a high iodine number, I advice you to enter: www.scanbio.org for further information about the products of ESTRA AS.
Best wishes Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] > Hello Jan > > >Hello Stephan. > >The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting soy bean > >oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil and > >several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating that the > >oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and therefore > >unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. > > In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: "Drying > results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the > unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and > being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can then > occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid." > -- From "Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel Replacement Fuel" by Phillip > Calais, Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, > and A.R. (Tony) Clark, Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association > Inc. > http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm > > See: > Iodine Values > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine > > But that's not quite what Elsbett's Alexander Noack is quoted as > saying at the East Coast Region-United States Elsbett Workshop: > > "Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean > based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel > engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. > There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when > in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a > polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the > life of your lubricating system. > > "What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for > the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil > intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed > also known as canola." > > So it would seem that Elsbett's reservations are not so much with > polymerisation per se because of the high iodine number as with > fuel-lubricating oil interactions. > > Can you shed any light on this? > > >There are some companies producing me from oil with a high iodine number, > >and there is no practical difference between those products and the BD:s > >with a iodine number around or under 120 for the consumer. > > Can you quote any research that supports the conclusion that there is > no practical difference? I've heard of drying problems with sunflower > oil biodiesel, and even with rapeseed oil biodiesel (I don't have the > reports, I was told they're in German) and I would not want to use > linseed oil or tung oil. > > >And may I add that > >the American B100 standard allows soy bean oil as raw material. > > Of course they do - how much do you think the soy councils and Big > Soy had to do with that? They were involved at every level. Whatever > the science may say, do you think it would have been possible for > them to develop standards that excluded soy? > > Similarly, it's often said that the EU standard's stipulating a > maximum iodine # of 120 (115 in France and Germany, while the US > standard doesn't stipulate anything) is politically based, intended > to exclude soy and protect European rapeseed oil production, but is > that really all there is to it? > > If you really wanted to exclude drying problems you'd probably have > to exclude rapeseed oil as well and stop at castor oil (85), but no > doubt that would be as politically impossible in Europe as excluding > soy would be in the US. In both, though less so in Europe perhaps, > biodiesel and biofuels are still seen more as agricultural > commodities issues than as energy issues. > > There is a whole side to this that is not to be trusted. In the US, > it might not be a clever thing to do career-wise for a researcher to > start investigating polymerising problems with soy biodiesel. Quality > checks of commercial biodiesel seem to be far from watertight, with > one lab attesting ASTM quality and another - after the fuel started > causing problems - finding it was not ASTM quality. One commercial > produceare repeatedly produced off-spec fuel that caused problems > with users' cars, but the NBB didn't seem to be aware of it and > proudly presented that producer's plant for delegates to the NBB's > annual convention to tour. People at the convention who raised the > sub-spec fuel issue were told not to rock the boat. > > Like Stephan, I too would like some reliable information on this > issue. I'm not convinced that it's not a problem. > > We have discussed this here before, Alexander's statement, > polymerisation, and oxidation - see: > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34679/ > > and > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34769/1 > > (Elsbett, by the way, is not anti-biodiesel.) > > Best wishes > > Keith > > > >Best regards > >Jan Warnqvist > >AGERATEC AB > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >+ 46 554 201 89 > >+46 70 499 38 45 > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:19 AM > >Subject: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD > >making?] > > > > > > > > > >Hi Everyone! > > > >I am a recent addition to the biodiesel world, due to a malfunction > > > >in my brain (age related no doubt) that caused me to go and buy a > > > >190D.(I Love it just as I knew I would) . After I decided that > > > >buying the conversion kit from Elsbett wasn't necessarily the best > > > >option (due to local WVO quality concerns)....by the way, if you come to > > > >Hawaii, where I live, and decide to eat in a restaurant, make sure > > > >you have healthinsurance, the glop they are using here to fry stuff > > > >in ...... > > > > > > > >Seriously, though, the WVO I am getting here is is a mix of mostly > > > >Soybean oil used 100 times over and other unidentified saturated and > >unsaturated things. > > > >So I deciided to make BD. > > > >Now, Everything is running, I've done small batches, large batches, > > > >learned a lot, I am using it....and now I just read that an > > > >Elsbett engineer said to stay away from Soybean oil, regardless if > > > >used straight or as feedstock for BD. > > > > > > > >Now, in my (brief) dealings with the Elsbett company I had the > > > >distinctive feeling that they have a little bit of an anti- BD leaning > >(maybe I got that because German is my native language) > > > > > > > But in studying the resources further, and considering the high IV > > > >of soybean oil more questions as to its suitability seem to emerge.... > > > > > > > >Here are some questions: As far as suitability as a long term > > > >source for B100, how serious are the concerns in using BD made from > > > >this sort of an oil? > > > > > > > What criteria in evaluating the finished product (beyond Mike Perry's > >criteria of pH and aspect) > > > >should serve as a go no go test? > > > > > > > does a two step process improve the situation with the high number of > >double bonds > > > (which leads to the high IV value, as I understand) > > > > > > >Thanks for your consideration, Aloha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Biofuel mailing list > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > >Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
