Hello Keith. The site is in Norwegian and English. Anti-oxidants are used as a reinsurance, since the temperatures of the car fuel tanks can rise to high levels. Anti-oxidants. Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB
[EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 1:54 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] > Hello Jan > > >Hello Keith ! > >Of course there is a possibility that unsaturated compounds interact in the > >lubricating oil, but if the engine«s combustion is proper, you do not have > >to expect big problems. But, there are other ways for the fuel to get in > >contact with the engine oil: It the engine is equipped with a row pump, with > >one pump element per injector, there is a possibility (due to construction > >error) that some of the fuel slips by the pump piston entering the engine > >oil. Some engine manufacturers refuse to acknowledge biodiesel, because once > >in the oil, it will not vaporise the way ordinary diesel engine fuel does. > >But the to be on the safe side, cut the oil change intervals by half, which > >is recommended by many engine manufacturers. Maybe you even can get Castrol > >to analyse samples of your oil and look for signs of polymerisation. > >You can safely assume that the EN 14214 is technically founded, although it > >has its shortcomings. > > I'm sure it's technically founded, but I wouldn't assume that it was > not also subjected to political pressures. > > >For info on me with a high iodine number, I advice you > >to enter: > >www.scanbio.org > >for further information about the products of ESTRA AS. > > Fish-oil biodiesel... but I can't read Swedish, apologies. Do you > quote any research studies there on polymerisation that might support > your statement that there is no practical difference for the consumer > between biodiesel made with drying oils (high iodine numbers) and > biodiesel made with oils with an iodine number around or under 120? > > Oils with an iodine number of around or under 120 are classified as > "semi-drying oils", and both soy and sunflower fall into this > category, with rapeseed oil (canola) at the lower end of the range. > Polymerise they do, if not quite as fast as linseed oil will (why > it's used in paint), as well as fish oils - see, eg: > > Anti-rust Paint from Fish-Scraps > http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/FishPaintJTF.pdf > > This is what Ken Provost said here recently about linseed oil biodiesel: > > >Being a drying oil, it will crosslink eventually in the presence of > >oxygen, which will cause it to thicken. I have used linseed biodiesel > >in my car, but only as a minor constituent (plenty of soy esters, olive > >esters, etc. in addition to the linseed) and only when I was prepared > >to empty my tank quickly (eg, a long trip where I'd have to refill with > >petrodiesel halfway anyway). > > Fish oils can have a higher iodine # than linseed oil. How do you > prevent fish-oil biodiesel from drying? Making biodiesel with it > doesn't affect the degree of unsaturation. Do you hydrogenate the > oil? That would help, but what does it do for the melting point? The > semi-drying oils will also dry, but not as quickly. > > Oxidation and thermal stability are one of the concerns about > biodiesel of the Fuel Injection Equipment (FIE) Manufacturers > (Delphi, Stanadyne, Denso, Bosch). In their field trials with > biodiesel they found increased dilution and polymerisation of engine > sump oil. See: > > FIEM report > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html > > Results from fleet tests in in Europe (Bosch) have shown that after > 60,000 km even DIN compliant fuel can damage the fuel injection > system through polymerisation. I know of one such case of injector > pump damage through polymerised fuel after only 40,000 km on B100. > > I think that if the EU's EN 14214 standard was entirely tchnically > founded it might have excluded rapeseed oil; instead it has an IV > cut-off of 120 and stipulates quite strict Oxidation stability > levels, the only biodiesel standard specification to do so (though > Australia has now followed suit). That looks like a compromise that > allows for rapeseed oil as a feedstock and tries to limit the damage. > There seems to have been a lot of trade in biodiesel anti-oxidants in > Europe since EN 14214 was announced. Some American companies are also > starting to offer biodiesel anti-oxidants - what do they know about > soy biodiesel that we don't know (but are trying to find out)? > > Best wishes > > Keith > > > >Best wishes > > > >Jan Warnqvist > >AGERATEC AB > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >+ 46 554 201 89 > >+46 70 499 38 45 > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 7:56 PM > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD > >making?] > > > > > > > Hello Jan > > > > > > >Hello Stephan. > > > >The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting soy > >bean > > > >oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil and > > > >several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating that > >the > > > >oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and > >therefore > > > >unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. > > > > > > In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: "Drying > > > results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the > > > unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and > > > being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can then > > > occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid." > > > -- From "Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel Replacement Fuel" by Phillip > > > Calais, Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, > > > and A.R. (Tony) Clark, Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association > > > Inc. > > > http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm > > > > > > See: > > > Iodine Values > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine > > > > > > But that's not quite what Elsbett's Alexander Noack is quoted as > > > saying at the East Coast Region-United States Elsbett Workshop: > > > > > > "Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean > > > based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel > > > engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. > > > There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when > > > in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a > > > polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the > > > life of your lubricating system. > > > > > > "What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for > > > the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil > > > intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed > > > also known as canola." > > > > > > So it would seem that Elsbett's reservations are not so much with > > > polymerisation per se because of the high iodine number as with > > > fuel-lubricating oil interactions. > > > > > > Can you shed any light on this? > > > > > > >There are some companies producing me from oil with a high iodine number, > > > >and there is no practical difference between those products and the BD:s > > > >with a iodine number around or under 120 for the consumer. > > > > > > Can you quote any research that supports the conclusion that there is > > > no practical difference? I've heard of drying problems with sunflower > > > oil biodiesel, and even with rapeseed oil biodiesel (I don't have the > > > reports, I was told they're in German) and I would not want to use > > > linseed oil or tung oil. > > > > > > >And may I add that > > > >the American B100 standard allows soy bean oil as raw material. > > > > > > Of course they do - how much do you think the soy councils and Big > > > Soy had to do with that? They were involved at every level. Whatever > > > the science may say, do you think it would have been possible for > > > them to develop standards that excluded soy? > > > > > > Similarly, it's often said that the EU standard's stipulating a > > > maximum iodine # of 120 (115 in France and Germany, while the US > > > standard doesn't stipulate anything) is politically based, intended > > > to exclude soy and protect European rapeseed oil production, but is > > > that really all there is to it? > > > > > > If you really wanted to exclude drying problems you'd probably have > > > to exclude rapeseed oil as well and stop at castor oil (85), but no > > > doubt that would be as politically impossible in Europe as excluding > > > soy would be in the US. In both, though less so in Europe perhaps, > > > biodiesel and biofuels are still seen more as agricultural > > > commodities issues than as energy issues. > > > > > > There is a whole side to this that is not to be trusted. In the US, > > > it might not be a clever thing to do career-wise for a researcher to > > > start investigating polymerising problems with soy biodiesel. Quality > > > checks of commercial biodiesel seem to be far from watertight, with > > > one lab attesting ASTM quality and another - after the fuel started > > > causing problems - finding it was not ASTM quality. One commercial > > > produceare repeatedly produced off-spec fuel that caused problems > > > with users' cars, but the NBB didn't seem to be aware of it and > > > proudly presented that producer's plant for delegates to the NBB's > > > annual convention to tour. People at the convention who raised the > > > sub-spec fuel issue were told not to rock the boat. > > > > > > Like Stephan, I too would like some reliable information on this > > > issue. I'm not convinced that it's not a problem. > > > > > > We have discussed this here before, Alexander's statement, > > > polymerisation, and oxidation - see: > > > > > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34679/ > > > > > > and > > > > > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34769/1 > > > > > > (Elsbett, by the way, is not anti-biodiesel.) > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > > > > >Best regards > > > >Jan Warnqvist > > > >AGERATEC AB > > > > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > >+ 46 554 201 89 > > > >+46 70 499 38 45 > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:19 AM > > > >Subject: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD > > > >making?] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Everyone! > > > > > >I am a recent addition to the biodiesel world, due to a malfunction > > > > > >in my brain (age related no doubt) that caused me to go and buy a > > > > > >190D.(I Love it just as I knew I would) . After I decided that > > > > > >buying the conversion kit from Elsbett wasn't necessarily the best > > > > > >option (due to local WVO quality concerns)....by the way, if you come > >to > > > > > >Hawaii, where I live, and decide to eat in a restaurant, make sure > > > > > >you have healthinsurance, the glop they are using here to fry stuff > > > > > >in ...... > > > > > > > > > > > >Seriously, though, the WVO I am getting here is is a mix of mostly > > > > > >Soybean oil used 100 times over and other unidentified saturated and > > > >unsaturated things. > > > > > >So I deciided to make BD. > > > > > >Now, Everything is running, I've done small batches, large batches, > > > > > >learned a lot, I am using it....and now I just read that an > > > > > >Elsbett engineer said to stay away from Soybean oil, regardless if > > > > > >used straight or as feedstock for BD. > > > > > > > > > > > >Now, in my (brief) dealings with the Elsbett company I had the > > > > > >distinctive feeling that they have a little bit of an anti- BD > >leaning > > > >(maybe I got that because German is my native language) > > > > > > > > > > > But in studying the resources further, and considering the high IV > > > > > >of soybean oil more questions as to its suitability seem to > >emerge.... > > > > > > > > > > > >Here are some questions: As far as suitability as a long term > > > > > >source for B100, how serious are the concerns in using BD made from > > > > > >this sort of an oil? > > > > > > > > > > > What criteria in evaluating the finished product (beyond Mike Perry's > > > >criteria of pH and aspect) > > > > > >should serve as a go no go test? > > > > > > > > > > > does a two step process improve the situation with the high number of > > > >double bonds > > > > > (which leads to the high IV value, as I understand) > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks for your consideration, Aloha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > > > > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Biofuel mailing list > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > >Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > > > >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Biofuel mailing list > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > >Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
