Hello DB. Quoting :"Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largely eliminates the tendency of the oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.." I can add that this is the exact scenario with methyl ester from fish oil and linseed oil. Jan Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB
[EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 ----- Original Message ----- From: "DB" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] > Anyone making bio-diesel should be concerned with the IV of the oil and the > polymerzation of the engine. After a careful reading of the australian > report "WVO as a Diesel replacement fuel" it is obvious that they are > concerned with it's use as straight veggy oil and Not so much > Bio-diesel.( I would be concerned too) Here is a direct quote from that > report......... " Trans esterifying triglyceride oils and fats with > monohydric alcohols to form biodiesel largly eliminates the tendency of the > oils and fats to polymerization and auto-oxidation.." The base crop for > european biodiesel being rapeseed with a IV of 98 is a reasonable goal to > acheve. Most of my stock is soy oil and much of it is hydrogenated. I also > get cottonseed and peanut oil along with canola (rapeseed) I no longer use > straight soy oil and try to make a blend. In the past when I only had soy > oil based biodiesel I would only run BD50. I an no longer worried about the > IV of the oil and if you are then just run BD50.........Drive down the road > Happy...............................DB ..PS. I have been making biodiesel > since '02 and have made 1000's of gallons with zero problems. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TLC Orchids and Such" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 4:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] > > > > Where can we get the veg-based motor oil? > > Can better oil filtering help with this problem? > > Racor has a motor oil filter used in race cars. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] > > > > > >> Thanks for the follow up, Keith. > >> I have since spent many hours researching the issue and have found some > >> relevant facts here: > >> > > www.blt.bmlf.gv.at/vero/veroeff/0100_Technical_performance_of_methyl_esthers > > _e.pdf > >> <#www.blt.bmlf.gv.atveroveroeff0100_Tec> > >> Keith Addison wrote: > >> > >> > Hello Stephan, Jan and all > >> > > >> > I asked Elsbett's Alexander Noack for some comment on what he was > >> > quoted as saying about soy oil, and got a very brief response from him: > >> > > >> >> Hi Keith, > >> >> > >> >> this all is nearly correct, but only for direct injection engines. > >> >> > >> >> Mit freundlichen GrŸ§en / Best regards > >> >> > >> >> Alexander Noack > >> >> ELSBETT Technologie GmbH > >> >> Weissenburger Stra§e 15 > >> >> D-91177 Thalmaessing > >> >> Internet: www.elsbett.com > >> >> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >> phone: +49 (0)9173 77940 > >> >> Fax: +49 (0)9173 77942 > >> > > >> > > >> > This was the quote in question: > >> > > >> >> "Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean > >> >> based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel > >> >> engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. > >> >> There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when > >> >> in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a > >> >> polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the > >> >> life of your lubricating system. > >> >> > >> >> "What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for > >> >> the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil > >> >> intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed > >> >> also known as canola." > >> > > >> > > >> > Best wishes > >> > > >> > Keith > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >> Hello Jan > >> >> > >> >>> Hello Stephan. > >> >>> The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting > >> >>> soy bean > >> >>> oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil > >> >>> and > >> >>> several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating > >> >>> that the > >> >>> oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and > >> >>> therefore > >> >>> unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: "Drying > >> >> results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the > >> >> unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and > >> >> being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can then > >> >> occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid." > >> >> -- From "Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel Replacement Fuel" by Phillip > >> >> Calais, Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, > >> >> and A.R. (Tony) Clark, Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association > >> >> Inc. > >> >> http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm > >> >> > >> >> See: > >> >> Iodine Values > >> >> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine > >> >> > >> >> But that's not quite what Elsbett's Alexander Noack is quoted as > >> >> saying at the East Coast Region-United States Elsbett Workshop: > >> >> > >> >> "Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean > >> >> based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel > >> >> engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. > >> >> There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when > >> >> in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a > >> >> polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the > >> >> life of your lubricating system. > >> >> > >> >> "What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for > >> >> the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil > >> >> intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed > >> >> also known as canola." > >> >> > >> >> So it would seem that Elsbett's reservations are not so much with > >> >> polymerisation per se because of the high iodine number as with > >> >> fuel-lubricating oil interactions. > >> >> > >> >> Can you shed any light on this? > >> >> > >> >>> There are some companies producing me from oil with a high iodine > >> >>> number, > >> >>> and there is no practical difference between those products and the > >> >>> BD:s > >> >>> with a iodine number around or under 120 for the consumer. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Can you quote any research that supports the conclusion that there is > >> >> no practical difference? I've heard of drying problems with sunflower > >> >> oil biodiesel, and even with rapeseed oil biodiesel (I don't have the > >> >> reports, I was told they're in German) and I would not want to use > >> >> linseed oil or tung oil. > >> >> > >> >>> And may I add that > >> >>> the American B100 standard allows soy bean oil as raw material. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Of course they do - how much do you think the soy councils and Big > >> >> Soy had to do with that? They were involved at every level. Whatever > >> >> the science may say, do you think it would have been possible for > >> >> them to develop standards that excluded soy? > >> >> > >> >> Similarly, it's often said that the EU standard's stipulating a > >> >> maximum iodine # of 120 (115 in France and Germany, while the US > >> >> standard doesn't stipulate anything) is politically based, intended > >> >> to exclude soy and protect European rapeseed oil production, but is > >> >> that really all there is to it? > >> >> > >> >> If you really wanted to exclude drying problems you'd probably have > >> >> to exclude rapeseed oil as well and stop at castor oil (85), but no > >> >> doubt that would be as politically impossible in Europe as excluding > >> >> soy would be in the US. In both, though less so in Europe perhaps, > >> >> biodiesel and biofuels are still seen more as agricultural > >> >> commodities issues than as energy issues. > >> >> > >> >> There is a whole side to this that is not to be trusted. In the US, > >> >> it might not be a clever thing to do career-wise for a researcher to > >> >> start investigating polymerising problems with soy biodiesel. Quality > >> >> checks of commercial biodiesel seem to be far from watertight, with > >> >> one lab attesting ASTM quality and another - after the fuel started > >> >> causing problems - finding it was not ASTM quality. One commercial > >> >> produceare repeatedly produced off-spec fuel that caused problems > >> >> with users' cars, but the NBB didn't seem to be aware of it and > >> >> proudly presented that producer's plant for delegates to the NBB's > >> >> annual convention to tour. People at the convention who raised the > >> >> sub-spec fuel issue were told not to rock the boat. > >> >> > >> >> Like Stephan, I too would like some reliable information on this > >> >> issue. I'm not convinced that it's not a problem. > >> >> > >> >> We have discussed this here before, Alexander's statement, > >> >> polymerisation, and oxidation - see: > >> >> > >> >> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34679/ > >> >> > >> >> and > >> >> > >> >> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34769/1 > >> >> > >> >> (Elsbett, by the way, is not anti-biodiesel.) > >> >> > >> >> Best wishes > >> >> > >> >> Keith > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> Best regards > >> >>> Jan Warnqvist > >> >>> AGERATEC AB > >> >>> > >> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >>> > >> >>> + 46 554 201 89 > >> >>> +46 70 499 38 45 > >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>> From: "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:19 AM > >> >>> Subject: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD > >> >>> making?] > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >Hi Everyone! > >> >>> > >I am a recent addition to the biodiesel world, due to a > >> >>> > >malfunction > >> >>> > >in my brain (age related no doubt) that caused me to go and buy a > >> >>> > >190D.(I Love it just as I knew I would) . After I decided that > >> >>> > >buying the conversion kit from Elsbett wasn't necessarily the best > >> >>> > >option (due to local WVO quality concerns)....by the way, if you > >> >>> come to > >> >>> > >Hawaii, where I live, and decide to eat in a restaurant, make sure > >> >>> > >you have healthinsurance, the glop they are using here to fry > >> >>> > >stuff > >> >>> > >in ...... > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > >Seriously, though, the WVO I am getting here is is a mix of mostly > >> >>> > >Soybean oil used 100 times over and other unidentified saturated > > and > >> >>> unsaturated things. > >> >>> > >So I deciided to make BD. > >> >>> > >Now, Everything is running, I've done small batches, large > > batches, > >> >>> > >learned a lot, I am using it....and now I just read that an > >> >>> > >Elsbett engineer said to stay away from Soybean oil, regardless if > >> >>> > >used straight or as feedstock for BD. > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > >Now, in my (brief) dealings with the Elsbett company I had the > >> >>> > >distinctive feeling that they have a little bit of an anti- BD > >> >>> leaning > >> >>> (maybe I got that because German is my native language) > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > But in studying the resources further, and considering the high IV > >> >>> > >of soybean oil more questions as to its suitability seem to > >> >>> emerge.... > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > >Here are some questions: As far as suitability as a long term > >> >>> > >source for B100, how serious are the concerns in using BD made > > from > >> >>> > >this sort of an oil? > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > What criteria in evaluating the finished product (beyond Mike > >> >>> Perry's > >> >>> criteria of pH and aspect) > >> >>> > >should serve as a go no go test? > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > does a two step process improve the situation with the high number > > of > >> >>> double bonds > >> >>> > (which leads to the high IV value, as I understand) > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >Thanks for your consideration, Aloha > >> >> > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Biofuel mailing list > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel > >> > > >> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >> > > >> > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > >> > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > >> > > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Biofuel mailing list > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel > >> > >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >> > >> Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > >> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuel mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
