Hi Levent >Hi Keith, > I'd like to comment on the standardisation of FAME. I think, different >analysis results are probably due to the different specifications, accepted >by different laboratories.
All US laboratories accept, or should accept, the US ASTM biodiesel standard D-6751. See: National standards for biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#biodstds >As far as I know the standardisation of biodiesel >is not yet completed in Europe. The detailed information can be found: >http://www.liquid-biofuels.com/Blt_ntb.pdf This is somewhat out of date now. Many or most European countries have their own standards, most notably the German draft standard DIN EN 14214, "Automotive fuels - Fatty acid methyl esters (FAME) for diesel engines - Requirements and test methods", one of the most complete biodiesel specifications, and the Austrian ON C1191 standard. Homebrew fuel can and does easily meet these standard requirements, according to quite a few laboratory tests that have been done. The EU CEN technical committee TC19 is evolving European Standards and is liaising with the International Standards Organisation committee TC28 regarding an eventual world-wide standard. However, the standards don't seem to be solving the problems of quality control with commercial producers. >I do not know the situation in USA. >I agree that home brewers can destroy the market if they produce and sell >bad-products. Many of them are not equipped with proper facilities for >analysis. Making biodiesel is easy but the analysis is not. Home brewers >must measure (at least) the amount of glycerol separated during the FAME >production which indicates the completion degree of the reaction. And of >course the washing is extremely important to remove any glycerol and >mono-glycerides. Excessive emulsification during the washing may indicate >the presence of too much mono-glycerides and soaps (an uncompleted >reaction). And of course it is not possible to remove any unreacted veg-oil >by washing. >I think, if someone is going to do this job seriously, he must have some >facilities to do at least some of the analysis, such as acid value, >saponification value, viscosity, density, water content and even the iodine >value which are not too difficult and can be done in a simple laboratory. >Analysis of free and total glycerol and monoglycerides are a bit more >difficult (see the above web-page for the methods). I think you've missed the point. Please read the posts from Mark that I forwarded again. For the background, please do an archive search for "Noyes" here: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuels-biz Graham Noyes of World Energy came to this list with just the same wrong impressions that you've expressed, and ended up changing his tune, as quoted in my response to Mark's message. Now the boot is on the other foot it seems, and I understand that quality control issues for commercial producers are also a problem in Europe, not just the US. I also suggest you spend a bit of time at the Biofuels section at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels Especially here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html Biodiesel and your vehicle Best wishes Keith >regards > >Dr.levent yuceer > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> >Cc: <biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 12:45 PM >Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Bad quality at World Energy? what's >that again about homebrewers??? > > > > Hi Mark > > > > >Hi folks, > > >This just turned up on the Biodieselnow forum (and apparently in response > > >to something on tdiclub I believe). Someone was complaining about what >they > > >thought to be poor quality biodiesel. > > > > > >It then came up that there was some other complaints about World Energy > > >biodiesel sold recently in the Pacific Northwest, if I understand > > >correctly. Then someone emailed Graham Noyes. then the following came >back > > >from World Energy. The Dr Dan referred to is a small independent >biodiesel > > >retailer. > > > > > > Now what's that again about homebrewers, quality, and out-of-spec fuel, > > >and the quality control standards that only industry can provide?? > > > > This is very ironic! Rhetorical question Mark, but for those who > > weren't around at the time or don't remember, this is what Graham > > Noyes said here: > > > > >The big fear of the biodiesel industry is that homebrewers > > >are going to destroy the market. I have seen home-brewed biodiesel > > >cause problems in multiple locations and it has taken significant > > >efforts to undo the damage. One region of the country in particular > > >had large quantities of homegrown off-spec fuel that was being sold > > >and distributed. The use of biodiesel was substantially delayed in > > >this area until trust for the fuel was re-established. > > > > Under considerable pressure, with charges that this was an apocryphal > > yarn, a Big Industry myth, and demands for substantiation, it became > > this: > > > > >I did not fabricate tales of vehicle problems from homebrew to > > >denigrate DIY's but to share my experience. There were a signficant > > >number of reports of downed vehicles in a particular area (not > > >destroyed, just clogged) of the country last year that I learned > > >about through my full-time work with biodiesel users in the West. I > > >am not going to get more specific than that because I learned about > > >these vehicles second-hand (though from several different people) > > >and I have no direct personal knowledge regarding what happened. > > > > Which finally, to Graham's credit, became this: > > > > >I apologize that I have not been doing a better job of addressing > > >many of the specific points made but I simply cannot keep up with > > >the prolific nature of this group. After some experience here, I > > >have a much better understanding of the efforts that are being made > > >to make top-quality fuel. I also think I should provide some more > > >details regarding my perspective on homebrew (and should have been > > >more careful about sweeping statements in the first place). While I > > >do nothing but biodiesel 40-70 hours/week, I have not seen any > > >significant problems result from the use of homebrew. There are > > >concerns but these are primarily perception rather than experience. > > >That said, I think the more that is done for quality control for > > >everyone involved in the production and distribution of biodiesel, > > >the better. So I hope that everyone's input and effort on these > > >fronts yields results. > > > > And good for him too (as we all said at the time). > > > > And now this. "Floaties or separate", "high glycerine content and > > possibly other particulate"? My, my. There are some FLAKEY > > homebrewers who make FLAKEY fuel, as we all know ("there's no > > evidence it does any damage", yeah), but how would you go about > > getting it this flakey? Now what was that you were saying about the > > commercial guys only having to test one sample a year to meet > > requirements, and what sort of guarantee was that? Others said > > homebrewers were more likely to do quality because they'd be more > > likely to take pride in it and it's for their own vehicles, rather > > than just doing the minimum that the bottom line dictates. > > > > Anyway, though I'm sure there's been some chortling about all this, > > Graham was right about one thing in the first place even if he > > pointed the finger in the wrong direction - this kind of stuff is a > > setback for biofuels development, no matter who's responsible. > > Hopefully industry will take it to heart and tighten up their act a > > bit. > > > > The really puzzling bit though is the different test results - the > > first "lab analysis showing that it met ASTM spec", and then the > > "independent lab and found it did not meet spec". What is going on > > here exactly? Is this what we've been saying about only one sample a > > year, or is there more to it than that? > > > > Graham's still around on the list, maybe he'll give us some more >information. > > > > Regards > > > > Keith > > > > > > > > >By the way we just had some kind of unrelated recall of out of spec fuel > > >locally, also due to glyceride content being too high. this was from a > > >different producer. > > > > > >the thread is here: > > >http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=941 > > > > > >quote: > > >Graham Noyes, the West Coast Representative for World Energy responded to > > >the email with a posting at Fred's. Here is his answer- > > >"This is Graham from World Energy here. We apologize for the >inconvenience > > >of the presence of crappy biodiesel and are doing our level best to solve > > >the problem. I think some more information on the situation could be >helpful. > > > > > >First, this biodiesel is crappy not because it is Yellow Grease (aka > > >recycled) biodiesel but because it is out of spec biodiesel. Prior to > > >triggering this railcar, we received lab analysis showing that it met >ASTM > > >spec. The good work of Dr. Dan alerted us that there might be an issue >with > > >the fuel. We sent samples to an independent lab and found it did not meet > > >spec. We then pulled all product and stopped supplying. If you have >product > > >that does not meet spec, we will replace it with ASTM spec fuel. We > > >guarantee that our fuel meets ASTM spec and back that up as necessary. > > > > > >Second, there are differences between recycled and virgin product. Most > > >significantly, YG product has a higher cloud point and CFPP than virgin. > > >For this reason, we do not typically supply YG product except in warm > > >climates or warm seasons. > > > > > >The floaties or separate that was observed is high glycerine content and > > >possibly other particulate. This is not present in fuel that is in spec, > > >including YG biodiesel. > > > > > >We have returned to soy product in the Northwest until quality control > > >issues have been resolved. Our goal is to expand the use of biodiesel and > > >provide honest information on product differences. Thanks for helping us > > >toward this goal! > > > > > >Best, > > > > > >Graham" ------------------------ Yahoo! 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