hi, hakan.
there is absolutely no question that the vikings traded with byzantium. there was one viking group which also tried to conquer it. having failed at this, they opted to formally establish friendly trade and diplomatic relations, arranging dynastic marriages (which served as the foundation for the later russian empire's presumption to carrying on the legacy of the ceasars). others saw fit to serve the byzantine emperor: the varingian guard to which bob and i have both referred previously.
their trading (and conquering) activities were even more far flung than byzantium, though. and it is generally accepted that for several hundred years they were essentially *the* vessel for the transfer of huge amounts of wealth from asia minor; the middle east; and asia to europe.
i did some looking and found a single site which links the viking runic alphabet with the turk script. the author's assertion is that the symbols, at least insofar as their phonetic representation, are identical. he went so far as to transcribe viking runic writings to the turk runes, yielding an effective translation. it must be emphasized that this was a strictly phonetic exercise. he did not use the turk language.
-----Original Message-----
From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:21:31 +0200
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] vikings, turks and romans
From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:21:31 +0200
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] vikings, turks and romans
Chris,
Look at my mail to Bob.
The Vikings had a regular and well established trading relationship
with Miklagård, which was Constantinople. This is proven in many
ways, by written "sagas" and also by history from that part. When
they visited Constantinople, it was special rules for them and they
were not allowed to be a larger group or to have arms, which also
is documented.
All the links are there, it is possible and Swedish historians have
started to accept the links and their probability. They do not regard
it as speculative. It is not much more that I can say off or on line,
but if you have substantial evidence that the theory is wrong, the
we can continue off line.
Hakan
At 02:16 AM 6/27/2005, you wrote:
>hakan,
>
>i wasn't disputing everything you suggest.
>
>what i do have trouble with, and correct me if i'm misinterpreting you, is
>the notion that the vikings could somehow be descended both from the roman
>legions and the turks. could there have been contact between the romans and
>scandinavia? possibly a trade relationship? certainly, but i find this
>questionable because the vikings would have had little if anything to >offer that the
>romans weren't already getting from the peoples of britania, and western and
>central europe. it seems more likely that scandinavian goods would have >found
>their way to the romans indirectly, via trade with the germanic peoples of >central
>europe.
>
>but even if we suppose that there was direct trade contact, i highly doubt it
>could have had sufficient regularity or depth to be of significant
>cultural/technological/political impact, with the possible exception of >their longboats.
> but even this i've never heard suggested, and it seems about as likely that
>this influence could have come from phoenician traders. that is, if the
>viking longboat wasn't an entirely autoctonous technology.
>
>there may be more to the turkish/turkic relationship, because the history
>gets a little more complex. but it seems highly speculative in the least >if not
>utterly baseless and fanciful, to suggest that the connections are anything
>but extremely remote in some cases, and superficial in others.
>
>anyway, except for the fact that (as was pointed out earlier in this thread)
>everything is connected to everything, we seem to have gone pretty far afield.
>
>perhaps you'd like to continue this discussion off-list?
>
>-chris b.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
_______________________________________________
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Look at my mail to Bob.
The Vikings had a regular and well established trading relationship
with Miklagård, which was Constantinople. This is proven in many
ways, by written "sagas" and also by history from that part. When
they visited Constantinople, it was special rules for them and they
were not allowed to be a larger group or to have arms, which also
is documented.
All the links are there, it is possible and Swedish historians have
started to accept the links and their probability. They do not regard
it as speculative. It is not much more that I can say off or on line,
but if you have substantial evidence that the theory is wrong, the
we can continue off line.
Hakan
At 02:16 AM 6/27/2005, you wrote:
>hakan,
>
>i wasn't disputing everything you suggest.
>
>what i do have trouble with, and correct me if i'm misinterpreting you, is
>the notion that the vikings could somehow be descended both from the roman
>legions and the turks. could there have been contact between the romans and
>scandinavia? possibly a trade relationship? certainly, but i find this
>questionable because the vikings would have had little if anything to >offer that the
>romans weren't already getting from the peoples of britania, and western and
>central europe. it seems more likely that scandinavian goods would have >found
>their way to the romans indirectly, via trade with the germanic peoples of >central
>europe.
>
>but even if we suppose that there was direct trade contact, i highly doubt it
>could have had sufficient regularity or depth to be of significant
>cultural/technological/political impact, with the possible exception of >their longboats.
> but even this i've never heard suggested, and it seems about as likely that
>this influence could have come from phoenician traders. that is, if the
>viking longboat wasn't an entirely autoctonous technology.
>
>there may be more to the turkish/turkic relationship, because the history
>gets a little more complex. but it seems highly speculative in the least >if not
>utterly baseless and fanciful, to suggest that the connections are anything
>but extremely remote in some cases, and superficial in others.
>
>anyway, except for the fact that (as was pointed out earlier in this thread)
>everything is connected to everything, we seem to have gone pretty far afield.
>
>perhaps you'd like to continue this discussion off-list?
>
>-chris b.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
_______________________________________________
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
_______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
