On Aug 27, 2005, at 10:41 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: > Oh, I don't mind a few shots - been known to dish them out myself! I > guess I would turn the tables and > ask if you ever heard of an actual communist system? I can't think of > one. Almost all had major built in flaws, > ranging from phony economic figures to police state governments. I've > never heard of a state actually withering away ;-) > Italy, Russia, the Soviet bloc. >
Hi Mike, I think that communism may only work well with very small populations, 'tribe sized', say ... less than a thousand citizen/members. The best example I know is the Israeli communes, where each formed a single economic unit in the larger democractic-capitalistic state. The Israeli communes, of which my extended family has intimate knowledge, were essentially worker-owned corporations, with all participants drawing almost identical wages, and enjoying the same standard of living. In the successful, well-organized communes, they often incorporated farming, craft and art work, and light industries, to realize a high standard of living and significant profits. Even this example has a dark underbelly: (besides palestine) the third generation is leaving the communes to work in the cities. The communes must recruit idealistic immigrants or fold from labor shortages. I'm of an age to have participated in and observed the communal efforts of the 60s and 70s here in the US. We were often spoiled, ill-prepared city dwellers, with little understanding of soil qualities, land management, husbandry, or work ethic. But even here, against a great deal of government persecution, some efforts did succeed, but usually only for a few generations. > OTOH, I can't say I can think of a pure and functional > democractic-capitalistic state either. Certainly not here or in > Europe. > As I said earlier, I think the best bet is a robust economy with some > socialistic (There! I said it!) notions thrown in. > As the large countries of Eastern Europe are (and have) learned, you > can't just conjure an economy. You have to have money > to make the goodies flow. Too high a tax rate, and most of the > businesses leave for greener pastures. Look at the film industry in > the UK. > Up until Thatcher (and no, I am NOT a big fan) came in, they country > taxed them into...the US! Now of course, our own companies are fleeing > to Canada > because they have *gasp* socialised medicine. > > I will never understand why the US is so anti socialised medicine. > Jeez, even in the Red state of Virginia we have socialized schools, > trash pickup, water > why not health care? Beats me. If Medicare and Medicade is so > popular, > and efficient, then why not expand it? Just another example of our wealthy masters' propaganda machinery persuading the majority to vote against their own interests. I can't speak for medicaid, run by the states individually, but I spent a few years as my grandmother's guardian, navigating social security and medicare for her. Let me assure you that the neocon propaganda against social security and medicare is purest BS. They are incredibly well run, far better than any private insurance company I've ever dealt with. The administration overhead for both systems is much less than similar private systems. While doctors often bitch about the low reimbursement rates from medicare, they will quickly admit that the system is very competent. (Especially those doctors imprisoned for medicare fraud.) Medicare works almost perfectly, it would be an excellent model for a nationalized health plan. In fact, the only problems with medicare are those being caused by the new drug bill recently passed by the republican congress, which was a huge corporate welfare gift to drug manufacturers, at the expense of consumers and taxpayers. Taryn ornae.com > > -Mike > > TarynToo wrote: > >> It's impossible to say "Communism would've collapsed even w/o our >> "help"", since every state that has attempted communism, with few >> exceptions, has been destroyed by the U.S.A. and its allies using some >> combination of economic warfare, bribery and corruption, economic and >> military support of 'counter-revolutionaries', and support of handy >> fascist states. >> .....and other comments... _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
