Greg, Your post below doesn't address what I wrote in reply to your suggestion that purchasing from Citgo was an illegal treaty
> IIRC, it's not legal for individual states or cities > to make treaties with foreign nations, as such an > agreement might be considered. I don't contest that arrangements could have been made in a manner that benefitted the poor. But that is another matter. Besides, that would upstage the "nirvanic" policies of capitalism/Ameicanism, now wouldn't it? Todd Swearingen Greg and April wrote: >Todd, > >There is a world of difference between a non-profit organization buying cut >rate fuel for the use of non-profit distribution to the poor, and a local >government buying cut rate fuel for use in a 'for profit' program, even if >it is supposed to benefit the poor. > >If Chicago was to buy the cut rate fuel, there would eventually be allot >scandal issues, with accusation and counter accusation about members of the >local government benefiting & taking advantage from the cost difference. >Eventually things would have ended up in court ( an expensive place ). >This is what Chicago avoided by declining the fuel. > >OTOH, if a non-profit organization was to buy the fuel at the cut rate, and >sell it to Chicago at the market price, then use the money gained to >distribute special discount bus passes to the poor, then the poor would >benefit, and the government could not. The same thing could have been >achieved if the Citgo sold the fuel at market price, and gave a non-profit >origination the difference between the money to reimburse the poor of >Chicago for difference in the cost of the more expensive bus passes. > >What I am saying, is that arrangements could have been different, that would >allow the poor to benefit, without bringing Venezuela by way of Citgo and >the government of Chicago directly into contact. There should be a >non-political organization that does not benefit in any way between Citgo >and the poor of Chicago to avid the taint of corruption & bribery. ** It >should be this way even if it was a domestic oil company that was donating >the fuel. ** > >Greg H. > >Why are lemmings better than politicians? >Lemmings only take themselves of cliffs. >Politicians try to send you ahead telling you what a favor they are doing >you to let you go first! > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 22:30 >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil > > >Large difference between signing a treaty and signing a contract. > >Until such time as some form of federal embargo is placed against >Venezuela, the market remains open and there are no restrictions against >such a transaction. > >Todd Swearingen > > > >Greg and April wrote: > > > >>Not really. >> >>See a previous post with the subject - Venezuela Oil Fields Back in State >>Control, from Keith Addison: >> >>"In 2001, it passed a new law requiring oil production to be carried out by >>companies majority-owned by the government." >> >>Greg H. >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Marty Phee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:04 >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil >> >> >>Very true, but wouldn't they be signing a contract with Citgo and not >>Venezuela. >> >> >> >>Greg and April wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>IIRC, it's not legal for individual states or cities to make treaties with >>>foreign nations, as such an agreement might be considered. >>> >>> >>>Greg H. >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>>Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 23:56 >>>Subject: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil >>> >>> >>>http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2710 >>> >>>Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil >>> >>>by Jessica Pupovac (bio) >>> >>>As Chicago's poorest face an increase to already-high public transit >>>fees, the city is ignoring an offer of discounted diesel fuel to >>>benefit low-income people. >>>Chicago, Dec 28, 2005 - The Chicago Transit Authority is refusing an >>>opportunity to alleviate commuting costs for hundreds of thousands in >>>the Windy City's low-income neighborhoods. Instead of accepting >>>deeply discounted fuel from the Venezuela-owned Citgo Petroleum >>>Corporation, the city is instead raising fares to solve budget >>>shortfalls. >>> >>>In an October meeting with representatives from the Chicago Transit >>>Authority (CTA), the city's Department of Energy and other city >>>officials, Citgo unveiled a plan to provide the Chicago with low-cost >>>diesel fuel. The company's stipulation, at the bidding of Venezuelan >>>President Hugo Chavez, was that the CTA, in turn, pass those savings >>>on to poor residents in the form free or discounted fare cards. >>> >>>But two months later, despite claims of a looming budget crisis, the >>>CTA president "has no intent or plan to accept the offer," according >>>to CTA spokesperson Ibis Antongiorgi. She gave no explanation. >>> >>>According to Venezuela's consul general in Chicago, Martin Sanchez, >>>the CTA has yet to inform his office of its decision to decline the >>>discount offer. >>> >>>In place of the proposed discount, which the CTA apparently does not >>>want Chicagoans to even know about, budget shortfalls will be >>>addressed by fare hikes. Chicagoans who are unaware of the Venezuela >>>offer will be hit with an increase of 25 cents per ride next month, >>>and discounted route-to-route transfers will be eliminated for >>>passengers paying cash. >>> >>>"This is going to hurt the poor and the minority people, like me," >>>said Dorothy Chew, resident of Humboldt Park, where one-third of >>>residents live below the federally recognized poverty level - >>>currently just $16,000 for a family of three. Chew relies on the CTA >>>to get to work and to Chicago Commons, where she attends classes >>>daily in preparation for taking her GED. Since she rarely has money >>>to invest in a fare card, she will be forced to pay for transfers the >>>majority of the time. >>> >>>Chew's classmate, Linda Cox, works a minimum-wage job and has been a >>>Public Aid recipient for 15 years. She also relies heavily on public >>>transportation. >>> >>>"I only earn $560 a month and of that, over $200 a month goes to my >>>bus fare," Cox told The NewStandard. "I have a 15-year-old and a >>>17-year-old who also need to get to school. If they change the prices >>>and take away transfers, there are going to be a lot of days missed. >>>I already see no money at the end of the month." >>> >>>The offer of discount fuel is not just confined to Chicago. Over the >>>Thanksgiving holiday, the first of Venezuela's "oil-for-the-poor" >>>programs in the US was launched. Citgo struck a deal with three >>>nonprofit organizations in the Bronx to deliver 5 million gallons of >>>heating oil at 45 percent below the market price. The deal will >>>amount to a savings of $4 million for the 8,000 low-income households >>>slated to benefit from the plan. >>> >>>"This is going to hurt the poor and the minority people, like me." -- >>>Dorothy Chew Citgo has made a similar arrangement with Citizens >>>Energy Corp. in Boston for the sale and distribution of 12 million >>>gallons, saving low-income and elderly residents there a total of $10 >>>million. The company's website says that it expects to expand the >>>program to other boroughs in New York City and that it is exploring >>>the possibility of offering discounted fuel to residents in Maine, >>>Rhode Island, Connecticut and Pennsylvania. >>> >>>However, in all of Illinois, only about 12,000 households use heating oil. >>> >>>So instead of fuel for heat, Citgo representatives offered the CTA a >>>40-50 percent discount on diesel fuel for buses to benefit Chicagoans >>>most in need of relief from soaring oil and gas prices this winter. >>> >>>"We didn't know how else to reach enough people," said Consul Sanchez. >>> >>>Another difference between the Chicago offer and the programs enacted >>>in the Northeast is that Citgo proposed to work with a government >>>agency, rather than nonprofit organizations. The CTA relies on the US >>>federal government - which is in a constant war of words with >>>Venezuelan President Chavez - for much of its funding. In fact, just >>>weeks after Citgo made its offer to the CTA, Congress signed the >>>Federal Transportation Appropriations bill, allocating $89 million in >>>infrastructure project funds the CTA had been seeking for years. >>> >>>Representatives from the US State Department and city officials, >>>including Aldermen involved in the negotiations and the Chicago >>>Mayor's Office, refused to respond to queries about whether >>>international politics played any part in the CTA's rejection of >>>Citgo's offer. >>> >>>Some critics of President Chavez say his offer of cheap fuel to >>>low-income communities in the US is a political ploy to win the >>>support of the American people. Larry Birns, executive director of >>>the progressive think tank, Council on Hemispheric Affairs, said >>>Chavez is trying to counter Bush administration criticisms with >>>"petro-diplomacy." Birns, who criticizes both US policy toward >>>Venezuela and Chavez's confrontational style, told TNS, "There is a >>>certain amount of humor involved in needling the Bush administration >>>for neglecting its own while attempting to stand tall in Latin >>>America." >>> >>>However, as Mark Weisbrot of the Center for Economic and Policy >>>Research - another progressive think tank - pointed out, the >>>Venezuelan government has been providing cheap fuel to several >>>countries in Latin America. Weisbrot is a staunch supporter of the >>>Chavez administration. >>> >>>"It is part of [Venezuela's] policy to compensate for the impact of >>>the high oil prices on poor people," he said. "They don't have any >>>grudge against the American people; it's just the Bush administration >>>that they don't like." >>> >>>Consul Sanchez echoed this sentiment. "Any corporation that makes a >>>big profit in a community owes that community something in return," >>>he said. With one of Citgo's three light-oil refineries located in >>>nearby Lemont, 30 minutes outside the city, Sanchez said, Venezuela >>>has "a special relationship with people and community organizations >>>in Chicago." >>> >>>There remains no sign, however, that the government of Chicago will >>>take Citgo and Venezuela up on the unilateral offer. >>> >>>© 2005 The NewStandard. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>messages): >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> >> >messages): > > >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
