Hello Todd, yes, to my knowledge it is favourable producing methyl esters by turning the FFA:s into soaps as a first step. There will be amounts of water created with this method as well, but it seems to be of less importance. There is no need for "scaring people off" , but there is a need for explaining the mechanisms necessary for success. There will also always be a need for us that are trained to disperse our knowledge with the responsibility required. I was referring to acid esterification of FFA:s / oil without passing through the soap step. These reactions are often incomplete, and moreover, quite slow. With best regards Jan Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB
[EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 4:29 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Acid - Base questions > Jan, > > Since when are esterifications "often incomplete?" > > And since when is a "good conversion" achieved necessarily through base > catalysis? > > It's relatively simple to take 100% FFAs and achieve a "100% yield" of > esters. Industry does it daily from soap stock. > > Let people satisfy their own curiosities rather than scaring them off > paths that many have already taken..., and succeeded at one might add. > > Todd Swearingen > > > Jan Warnqvist wrote: > > >Hello Jim, > >the sensible thing is to spending time and money producing BD from a cheap > >feedstock, not the other way around. > >Acid esterifications are often incomplete, and I assume that oils and fats > >with max 20% FFA are worth while bothering about, unless you are willing to > >do several acid esterification steps and draining off the produced water > >after each step.But in order to have a good conversion into BD, you finally > >have to run the alkaline transesterification step , also for neutralization. > >Good luck to you ! > >Jan Warnqvist > >AGERATEC AB > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >+ 46 554 201 89 > >+46 70 499 38 45 > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "JJJN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > >Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 3:26 AM > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Acid - Base questions > > > > > > > > > >>Thanks Jan, > >>If I had developed a method to separate FFA's from base stock without > >>using chemicals or water say in the range of 95% separation in WVO > >>(still a work in progress but hopeful results) so that I could React the > >>Low FFA's in a Base method then would it be feasible to react the High > >>FFA's In a separate Acid reaction? Or what problems would I encounter > >>like the water problem you noted below? Would the FFA's be worth the > >>trouble? > >> > >>Thanks Jim > >> > >>Jan Warnqvist wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Hello Jim, > >>>when using the acid esterification, you will have methyl esters, > >>> > >>> > >unreacted > > > > > >>>oil, sulphate ions, oxonium ions and - water. > >>>Proceeding to the base step you will create more methyl esters, potassium > >>> > >>> > >or > > > > > >>>sodium soaps, maybe a little unreacted oil or partially reacted oil, > >>>potassium or sodium sulphates and - even more water. > >>>This method works fine if the water content can be kept on a reasonable > >>>level. Please note that the higher the initial FFA level, the more water > >>>will be produced. > >>>With best regards > >>>Jan > >>>Jan Warnqvist > >>>AGERATEC AB > >>> > >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >>>+ 46 554 201 89 > >>>+46 70 499 38 45 > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: "JJJN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>To: "BIO" <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > >>>Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:01 AM > >>>Subject: [Biofuel] Acid - Base questions > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>I have decided to try the acid/base method in small test batches as I > >>>>have some High FFA (4ml) oil I would like to process. Since September I > >>>>have gone to great lengths to get repeatability and accuracy in all my > >>>>work with Biodiesel. I have read and re-read JtF and I know that I will > >>>>no doubt read it several more times if I get stumped. I would like to > >>>>start with fully understanding the process first. > >>>>Before I start: > >>>>Can you use KOH with the Acid Base method? It might be obvious, but I > >>>>did not see it in the recipe as a substitution. > >>>> > >>>>When the acid gets done with Estrification properly then the mix that is > >>>>left is basically an oil (triglycerides) , Methanol, and Sulfur ions ? > >>>>Or did I miss something? > >>>> > >>>>When the Methoxil is added the Sulfur gets combined with the Sodium > >>>>ions, (right?) how does this affect the reaction? > >>>> > >>>>Any good experienced information would be helpful, > >>>> > >>>>Jim > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>Biofuel mailing list > >>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >>> > >>> > >>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >>>> > >>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>messages): > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>Biofuel mailing list > >>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >>> > >>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >>> > >>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > >>> > >>> > >messages): > > > > > >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Biofuel mailing list > >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >> > >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >> > >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > >> > >> > >messages): > > > > > >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Biofuel mailing list > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
