bob allen wrote: > Howdy Mike, > > Mike McGinness wrote: > > I studied this topic extensively for >30 years now and I am a chemical > > engineer. It is not all a con, though > > some of it has a lot of pseudo science "why it works" theories printed in > > the marketing literature as fact > > (which it is not). Thomas Register (in 1990) listed over 50 US > > manufacturers of these devices, some had been > > in business with over $10,000,000 in sales since the early 1970's, so there > > is something to them! > > this doesn't address whether these devices work, just that there are many who > believe they do. >
My point is that companies that manufacture and sell only one device, if that device does not work, do not build up large companies that are 30 years old having sales in excess of 10,000 million dollars per year if that one device does not work, and certainly not over 50 companies. > > > > > Bink's manufacturing, and later Devillbuss was selling them (electrostatic > > versions) for water wash paint > > booths to kill collected paint overspray, and to keep it from scaling up > > the walls, etc. of water wash paint > > booths back in the late 1970's. Ingersol Rand introduced them later for > > cooling water scale control on air > > compressor water cooled aftercoolers. > > we were talking about fuel and energy, please one thing at a time. >From a chemical engineering standpoint there is a similarity to fuels and a >similarity between the various devices and how they affect the fluids they are treating. Also, one of my points was that these devices are used successfully in many different applications. And they are ALL used to save energy! > > > > > > I do know it works in some situations, and not in others and it is not well > > understood yet in the scientific > > community what the parameters are for making it work all the time > > (controls). It is more of an empirical trial > > and error technology so far with most of the application data as to where > > and when it does and does not work > > locked up the field trial data of the manufacturers and retailers. > > that doesn't sound like very credible evidence to me It was not meant to be offered as evidence, only a summary of my 30 years of trying to figure out what is really going on with these various devices and why they work in one place and then not in another. Most of my experience with them has been with water treatment heat exchanger scale prevention to save energy!!!! These units can work in one cooling tower and not the next. Unfortunately there are many variables that are not controlled or measured in cooling water and it is one or a combination of those differnces that makes it work in one tower and then not in the next. For this reason the magnetic water treatment manufactures (the large reputable ones) usually offer money back "Try it" gaurantees. > > > > > > Even hydrocarbon fuel has some polar molecules. There are also short lived > > free radicals in the fuel that are > > affected. Also look into paramagnetic (calcium, Ca+2, O2 for some > > interesting insights). I have seen > > electromagnetic units, 24" diameter and larger selling for >$100,000 used > > in oil pipelines to stop paraffin > > wax (polymerization) scale from forming in the pipelines. > > but have you seen two pipelines side by side, one with and one without, and > compared the waxing of > the two? No. Typical demos have been done by repeatedly adding and removing the magnets on the same pipeline since two pipelines side by side may be significally different in some way. The scale (or wax in this case) forms with out the magnets and disapears with the magnets reproducibly. > > > > > > The source of power for the permanent magnetic units is not the magnet. It > > is the pump motor driving the pump > > which is pushing the fluid through the magnetic field, or the case of the > > newer catalytic units it is the > > turbulence of the fluid flowing past dissimilar metals at the surface in an > > alloy causing an electrochemical > > effect. The velocity of the fluid going through the magnetic field (or > > catalytic units) has a critical > > velocity window (turbulence and friction are involved). It is the flow of > > the fluid through the magnetic field > > and the resulting attempt at alignment by the polar molecules (or their > > electrons) in the fluid that causes > > the physical chemical changes in the fluid. Colloidal particles are > > disturbed, broken up and rearranged. > > to me it would make more sense if the polarization of the molecules caused an > alignment and > therefore larger particles... Simply placing the fluid (static) in the presence of the magnet does not work. When the fluid flows through the magnetic field the electrons in molecules respond to the applied field and they try to reorient themselves. This causes collodial (small groups of molecules, more on that later) electromagnetic molecular forces to be disturbed and the collodial particles are rearanged. The rearangment apparently favors better combustion in the fuel case, and the formation of soft sludge instead of hard tenacious calcium pipe scale in the case of heat exchangers. > > > > > > This is an area that should be seriously researched at the university > > chemical engineering level someday. > > I can assure you that if there was any evidence or even a rational > explanation for why it worked, it > would be researched. Not always the case. Research and politics sometimes clash. > > > > Unfortunately the Russians did most of the magnetic water and fuel > > treatment R & D in this area when it was > > the Soviet Union during the cold war. > > they also did psychic research. Just because you look doesn't mean you can > find. The Soviet research was real, published and quite impressive. > > > During that time the US chemical industry paid (via so called R & D > > Grants) US universities to prove it did not work (on water for controlling > > calcium scale for instance, the > > tests were rigged to fail, to prove they did not work) in order to insure > > continuing chemical sales for water > > treatment chemicals of cooling towers, boilers, etc. > > this is beginning to sound like the mythic 200 mpg carburetor that oil > companies are hiding. No. I won't name names, but if you can turn up the early 1970's papers they list the major chemical companies that funded the so called research trials. Reading the test procedures they used are laughable, as they were designed to prove these devices did not work, when in fact they did. The problem was they were killing lucrative water treatment chemical sales. > > > They did the same thing to the ozone industry until NASA > > (a NACE society published paper covered this about 15 years ago) proved > > that Ozone could eliminate calcium > > scaling and bacteria with out additional chemicals in cooling towers as > > well as allow the increase of the > > number of cycles of concentration. > > we are a long way from "magnetic fuel conditioning" These same magnets are sold for magnetic water conditioning. So is ozone, which has moved from the realm of sudo science in the USA 30 years ago, to a point now where it is used instead of chlorine in nearly 50% of US drinking water supply systems. > > > > > > I have personally run a controlled test using a magnetic device and > > witnessed the existing hard calcium pipe > > scale disappear and turn into sludge in a closed system in an aqueous > > environment. It also turns out that > > depending on the orientation of the magnetic field lines around the fluid > > flow one can encourage or discourage > > biological growth in the fluid!!!! > > and the evidence for this is? Increased baterial collony counts in one case versus near zero bacterial collonies in the other case. Aiming the south pole at the fluid flow does one, north pole does the other. I would have dig up some old conference papers to tell you which is which. > > > For instance if oriented properly it can inhibit bio fouling of diesel fuel > > "when it is flowing" though the device (does not work on fuel sitting in > > the tank). > > > > UTMB hospital demonstrated years ago the use of an electromagnetic field > > coil to speed the healing of broken > > leg bones (paramagnetic calcium!!!) in a patient who's leg had repeatedly > > failed to heal and was rebroken > > repeatedly as a result. A few weeks of the magnetic treatment and the leg > > permanently healed in just a few > > weeks, in what usually takes 3 months!!!!! It was the flow of blood through > > the magnetic field (in my opinion > > that affecting the paramagnetic calcium in the blood, and / or possibly the > > iron-hemoglobin) that speed up the > > healing process. The point is it worked. > > show me two broken legs, one treated with magnetic and one not. If I am not mistaken, the device is widely used now in hospitals. Are you saying that doctors are snake oil salesmen too? If so, I might agree with you partly on that one. > > > > > > Harbour Tools currently sells a fuel magnetic device for less than $20.00 > > retail for use on the fuel lines in > > automobiles. Home Depot was recently selling magnetic / catalytic water > > treatment devices for calcium scale > > control on home water heaters!!!! > > again this doesn't mean they work, only that there are gullible people out > there. Show me some data > , published in a peer-reviewed journal that has been tested and accepted by > others, then I will > believe. Till then, it looks like a scam to me. > > > > > I would find it most interesting to see test results of using these devices > > ( including magnetic, RF, > > electrostatic, and catalytic units ) on the air itself (instead of the > > fuel) since the O2, oxygen, is a > > di-radical with two unpaired electrons!!!!! > > I would find it more than interesting. for the life of me I can't see why a > fuel molecule would > care if the oxygen molecules are aligned with respect to a magnetic field. It has to do with free radicals!!!!!!!!! and activated oxygen. > > > > > > Mike McGinness > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://www.nmfrc.org/ateww.cfm > > http://www.ecoshieldenv.com > > > > > > Andres Secco wrote: > > > > > >>All will depend on how strong is the magnet. With 6000 gauss or more settled > >>in the gasoline inlet will be enough to get good results on the gas > >>efficiency. Also engine runs much better. > >>Polarization of different materials including boilers fuel, gasoline > >>engines, cooling towers and diesel engines has been extensively studied and > >>the results are VERY scientific and very good. > >>There is a big industry behind the applications. I have been using magnets > >>for different purposes for years. > >>Andres > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > >>Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:54 AM > >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners > >> > >>Howdy Russel, > >> > >>R Heron wrote: > >> > >>>Hi Tim > >>>At 50 pounds currency and 36 grams weight for the magnets it is definitely > >>>a > >>>rip off but polarization is not with out scientific merit. > >> > >>do you have data to support this claim? > >> > >>How do you polarize the fuel, a hydrocarbon with essentially no dipole > >>moment? > >> > >> > >>>Highly polarized fuel will combine with air better with obvious results > >>>but > >>>a 36 gram magnet would not polarize much fuel. > >>>Russel > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: "Tim Hadland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > >>>Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 1:43 PM > >>>Subject: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Been approached by someone selling these from this company: > >>>> > >>>> http://www.ecomagnets.com/motoflow.htm > >>>> > >>>> I am no physics expert, so are these products a complete con ? > >>>> > >>>> cheers Tim > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>Biofuel mailing list > >>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >>>> > >>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >>>> > >>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > >>>>messages): > >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Bob Allen > http://ozarker.org/bob > > "Science is what we have learned about how to keep > from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
