Howdy Bob, Bob Molloy wrote: > A bit late to come into this thread but I found it intriguing enough to > mention Jared Diamond's excellent book, "Guns, Germs and Steel", on > just this topic. The sub-title is "A Short History of Everybody for the > last 13,000 Years". Diamond is an interesting character, formerly Prof. > of Physiology at UCLA Medical School he later made major contributions > to ecology and the study of evolutionary biology and is currently Prof. > of Geography and Environmental Health Sciences at UCLA. > He addresses the question of why certain populations appear to achieve > while others don't, including the very pertinent point that the > term "achievement" is value loaded. > It would be nonsensical to attempt a synopsis of his book in a sentence > or two but he builds a good case for the determinants of achievement in > terms of climate, soil conditions, availability of water, fauna and > flora plus a few accidents of history and sheer bad luck such as the > thriving colony of early Norsemen in Greenland who got wiped out by a > mini Ice Age that nobody saw coming,
It was more than bad luck, as Diamond pointed out in his next book "Collapse" The failure of the Norse society on Greenland was due not only to climatic cooling but more so due to failure to adapt. The native Inuit survived just fine during this period, but the Norse refused to change their ways- and were thus doomed. and the Australian aborigines who > got stuck for 40,000 years in an environment trap. > First published in 1997 the book is available at Amazon in second-hand > paperback for a dollar or two. It may not change your life but it will > certainly alter your view of how we got from there to here. > > Regards, > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Michael Redler <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org > <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:34 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway > > "Yes, a Calivinist nation - all claiming exceptionalism - but this is a > collective thing, not really individual." > > That reminds me of Max Weber's */The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit > of Capitalism/*. I started on it but was distracted. From what I > read, It seems worth mentioning in this thread. > > - Redler > > */Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>/* > wrote: > > A warm bath hath charms to soothe the savage list member ;-) > For you, Don Kemple, remember: Incomprehesibility is a gift, > son, use it > wisely. > "A Nation of Shopkeepers, all selling local-produced goods?" > Forgive > me, my Schumacher is pretty rusty. > > Yes, a Calivinist nation - all claiming exceptionalism - but > this is a > collective thing, not really individual. > > But I think that we are now at a stage where, under the > leadership of > GW, we're mouthing "all nations are equal," but, we're just > equalerer > than the other equal ones. > 4 legs good, 2 legs bad. > 4 legs good, 2 legs bad. > 4 legs good, 2 legs bad. > > > Mike Redler wrote: > > > Kind sir, > > > > Thank your for your gratitude. However, I find myself > entirely outdone > > by your short but profound response. I shall now follow the > advice of > > my esteemed virtual colleague, Mr. Weaver and retire to the > loo for a > > bath. > > > > Ta ta, > > > > - Redler > > > > Martin Kemple wrote: > > > >> Thanks Mike! > >> Intriguing perspective. > >> > >> Though I'm preternaturally suspicious of our (Westerners') > proclivity > >> for exceptionalism (from the creed of Manifest Destiny on > the one > >> extreme, to its opposite - that we're inveterate > >> "predator-imperialists," on the other), it's a hard box to > escape from. > >> Adam Smith / E.F. Schumacher - two sides of the came coin? > >> Know what I mean? > >> That is: Not only are we moderns "different", we're more > different > >> than anybody else has ever been. > >> What's up with that? > >> I recoil at the idea, yet can't get away from it. Like a > dark magnet : o > >> -MK > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Aug 22, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael Redler wrote: > >> > >> Martin, > >> > >> Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed > in a > >> civilization. Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it > >> stands to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the > >> civilization from which it came. > >> > >> The civilizations you mentioned were content with technical > >> developments that required only what was immediately > available to > >> them from their environment. In my opinion that's something > which > >> our ambitious culture hasn't yet been able to appreciate. > >> > >> As E. F. Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his > writing, the > >> so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us > >> in directions which does more harm than good. > >> > >> It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilization by a > >> hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the > >> world a better place. I say this as someone who has two > >> engineering degrees, a patent of my own and a wife who is a > >> research scientist and a PhD. in Chemistry. > >> > >> I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who > >> have yet to be mentioned. However, to put things in > >> perspective, one needs to ask if the work of particular > >> inventors are a measure of progress in a civilization > >> (irrespective of politics): > >> > >> Could any of these people have been able to do what they did > >> without the work of their predecessors and the civilization from > >> which they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was > >> beyond their control and grew from their own natural curiosity? > >> > >> Tesla and Edison represent two fundamental ideologies and a > broad > >> range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not > >> made the progress he did, without the work of people born (as > >> much as four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal, > >> Fourier, etc. Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every > >> day. He was inspired by and built upon every technology to which > >> he was exposed, representative of every inventor which came > >> before him. > >> > >> I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves > >> with the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you > >> can't judge people like Jonas Salk, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the > >> Wright Brothers or Richard Gatling until you've also judged > those > >> who used their inventions and examined the inventor's > >> justification for it's development. > >> > >> If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be: > >> > >> If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of "the > >> modern world", who would get the credit? > >> > >> Similar questions include: > >> > >> How high is up? > >> > >> How dark is gray? > >> > >> -Redler > >> > >> > >> */Martin Kemple /* wrote: > >> > >> Question: > >> Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the > >> wheel for > >> transportation on their own? > >> Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal > >> combustion much > >> earlier than the opportunists who did? > >> And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity > >> much sooner > >> than the nitwits who stumbled onto it? > >> In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then > >> all happen > >> seemingly at once? > >> -Martin K. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob ------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------- The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
