Andres,
>For the sake of precise concepts, gliceryn is NOT an emulsifier.
I have used the glycerine "cocktail" to de-grease a barrel. Is it the
caustic (KOH) that reacts with the grease?
Also:
If I do a wash test on BD from a complete reaction .... no mono- or di-
glycerides, but with some glycerine "cocktail" still present, I get an emulsion.
Let the glycerine settle, no emulsion.
Could you explain?
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: Andres Secco
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time
Joe,
For the sake of precise concepts, gliceryn is NOT an emulsifier. Emulsifiers
contains a clear lipofilic and hidrofilic zones in the molecule. Which is an
emulsifier is the partially reacted mono or di-glicerides, but in a crystal
clear liquid there are not emulsions or dispersions.
Glycerin is dissolved in the BD and separates from the liquid BD phase with
time.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Street
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine Settling Time
Tom;
It makes sense. Glycerin is an emulsifier. Have you ever tried dosing the
batch again with a little methoxide? After you remove the glycerin it doesn't
take much to get the last bit of the reaction to go and settle out the
remaining glycerin. Of course this is well known already. Kenji and many
others do straight base catalysis as a two stage deal. You can do a methanol
test of sorts and the unreacted oil will settle out. Then you can use the
measured amount of unreacted oil in the methanol test vial to estimate the
percentage unreacted oil in your batch and dose accordingly with the
stoichiometric amount of methoxide. Assume neutral oil for this calculation.
Rod and I do this regularly if the batch fails the QT and it works like a
charm. Will save you settling time in the long run.
Big skies
Joe
Thomas Kelly wrote:
Joe,
I took a sample from my latest batch of BD destined for my boiler
(failed QT; but very little residue dropped out). It had settled for almost 10
hrs.
That was yesterday morning. Today there is a small, but noticable,
bit of glycerine on the bottom. More settled out after the initial 10 hrs of
settling.
I don't have any results with good BD to compare it with.
If it turns out that glycerine settles out slower from incomplete vs
complete reactions, it would answer the question I asked about getting
emulsions when I washed low quality BD after letting it settle overnight, but
not getting emulsions when it settled for a few days to a week.
It would also help with a friendly disagreement I have with a
friend. He seems to think that unreacted glycerides will settle out of the BD
given time. He has taken to going with about 16% (vol/vol) of methanol in his
batches.
His logic:
"Unreacted oil causes emulsions, right?"
"The emulsions I get in the first wash after settling the BD
overnight are due to the unreacted oil?"
"When I let it settle for a week or more I don't get emulsions,
therefore the unreacted oil must have settled out."
More likely:
Some unreacted glycerides are still there, but after a week of
settling more of the glycerine has settled out. Even a small amount of
glycerine compound the emulsifying effects of the unreacted glycerides .....
Yes?
By the way, I always ask him "Did you do a quality test?"
His answer: "Oops, I forgot."
Thanks Joe .... and Rod ..... for bringing this to my attention
A push to make a lot of BD for heat is just around the corner. It
might be best to include more settling time in the schedule.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Street
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
Hey Tom;
Take a sample from your fuel after settling 6-8 hrs and set it asside
in a mason jar for the longer period and see what settles out. Rod believes
that glycerin settles slower in a poorly completed reaction. I believe he is
right. And yes it only takes a little glycerin to emulsify your wash.
Joe
Thomas Kelly wrote:
Mike,
I let mine settle for a week when I can. It washes much easier. I doubt
that it does anything for an incomplete reaction though. That is to say, I
don't think the unreacted oil will settle out.
But:
I have been wondering about something.
When I started making BD it would never pass the methanol quality test.
I inevitably got emulsions in the wash. Now, when I make BD for my
"oil"-fired boiler, I use only about 16-17% (vol/vol) of methanol. The BD
does not pass the quality test, but I don't have the same emulsion problems.
Is it because I let it settle longer (24+ hours vs 6 - 8 hrs)?
Does the presence of a small amount of glycerine/soaps make that much of
a difference when trying to wash BD from an incomplete reaction?
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
FWIW - I let the batch settle for a week or so (the lazy man's way) and
that also seems to help w/ this.
Thomas Kelly wrote:
Shawn,
I suspect that the "dense substance at the bottom of the flask" was
unreacted glycerides, indicating an incomplete reaction.
I now drain a sample of the mix towards the end of processing.
- Shut off the pump
- Drain a sample and turn the pump back on
- Allow the glycerin to settle for a few minutes
- Perform Jan W's quality test on the top (crude BD) layer
There is still glycerin in the mix, but if I have succeeded in
getting
a complete reaction, I do not get an insoluble residue on the bottom.
I repeat the test after washing the BD. It is a quick, easy test, and
the
result, whether it passed or failed can be added to the methoxide for your
next batch ..... no wasted methanol, costs nothing to perform the test.
Best to You,
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "shawn patrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Biofuel Mailing List" <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:03 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuel Quality Test
Good Day All,
My question is in regards to the Quality test develop by Jan Warnqvist.
Is
this test to be performed on the product before or after the glycerin has
been removed, or does it matter. I performed the test with out removing
glycerin and found that I got a clear bright phase except you could tell
that there was a more dense substance at the bottom of the flask. I
assumed
that was the glycerin since just extracted a sample from the process
without
separating BD from glycerin. Does the glycerin dissolve in the methanol??
Was I looking at the unprocessed materials in my BD??
Regards
Shawn Patrick
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