This looks good to me! Thanks!
— Chris > On 31 Oct 2020, at 11:03, Ben Proctor <b...@benproctor.co.uk> wrote: > > Thanks Chris (and everyone else) for your very helpful contributions. > > I've tried to synthesise the discussion on this thread and would like to > propose the following for the Wales section of the Multilingual Tagging page > on the OSM Wiki. > > This would be a slight change from the current entry > > BEGINS/--- > > In Wales many, but by no means all, places and features are named differently > in Welsh and English. > > Instances where the name is different in Welsh and English > > The name tag should contain the name widely used by the local population. > > This should be either the name used in English or the name used in Welsh but > not both. > > If the name included in the name: tag is that used in English, name:cy can be > added to show the alternate name (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code > for the Welsh language). > > If it is the name included in the name: tag is the name used in Welsh, > name:en can be added to show the alternate name (en is the two letter > ISO639-1 language code for the English language). > > Examples: > > name: Welshpool > name:cy Y Trallwng > > name: Biwmares > name:en Beaumaris > > It should not be necessary to add both name:en and name:cy though it is not > harmful to do so. > > Instances where the name is the same in Welsh and English > > The name: tag should contain the name. > > It is not, in principle, necessary to add either a name:cy or a name:en > (since there is only one name in both languages). > > However > > Multi-lingual tagging in Wales is currently patchy. Adding a name:cy tag even > though this will duplicate the information in the name: tag would help other > mappers distinguish between cases where multi-lingual tagging has not yet > been applied and cases where the name is the same in Welsh and English. > > Example: > name: Caernarfon > name:cy Caernarfon > > ---/ENDS > > > I *think* this largely synthesises the discussion so far. I'd welcome more > comments on this. > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:40 PM Christopher Jones <roller...@sucs.org> wrote: > Hi Ben, > > Personally, I don’t see the point of > > name: Swansea > name:en Swansea > name:cy Abertawe > > It's stating the obvious that if name:cy is not the same as name: for a place > in Wales, the name attribute is the English, and visa versa. It’s a little > close to “tagging for the renderer” for my taste. That said it costs little > to duplicate it in practice, so rock on if that’s what you want to do! > > Regarding what should be in the name tag, we have a set of flawed options… > > You initially suggested using a “widely” known by rule, this by its nature > favours the English names. The majority of the Welsh population are primary > English speakers, and despite a huge amount of time and money being spent on > welsh language laws and education provision that’s not about to change in any > of our lifetimes, even the welsh governments hugely ambitious target is for > 1M welsh speakers by 2050, that still less than a third of the population. > > • always use the name that is used in Welsh > > In Gwynedd where 65% of the population identify as able to speak welsh, this > might make some sense, in Blaenau Gwent where its 7.8%, this makes no sense. > (Figures from the 2011 census) > > • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a hyphen > (which is the practice in some other countries) > > I’m going to refer you to > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020478.html > where I made my argument against this (tl;dr - its ugly, confusing and there > are much better ways of achieving the aim (ie localised renders)) > > • use the name on local signage > > I’m going to assume you mean to use the first name on the local signage > because the vast majority of signage has both English and welsh names (where > they both exist), indeed its been a legal requirement for them to do so for > quite some time. The major issue with this is since the Welsh Language > Measure of 2011 councils have a duty to ensure "that the Welsh language is > treated no less favourably than the English language” this ensures that on > any sign made in the last 10 years Welsh is first regardless of local usage. > > So we end up with the status quo…. > > • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is what > the wiki currently suggests) > > This too has issues, the main one being its hard to verify, it relies on > local mappers being able to reach a consensus. > > To me, this remains the pragmatic option! > > Thanks for reading! > > And Ben, thanks for taking on the welsh render! > > — > Chris - not a Welsh speaker, but ran cyOSM, the first multilingual OSM render > many moons ago. > > > > On 21 Oct 2020, at 12:10, Ben Proctor <b...@benproctor.co.uk> wrote: > > > > Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread so far. > > > > I'd like to draw out what I see as the key threads of the discussion so far: > > The use of :cy and :en name tags should be encouraged. It allows more > > flexibility in rendering and adds clarity. So far this hasn't been a very > > controversial part of the discussion. > > > > I think the wiki could be revised to emphasise this without causing too > > much concern. > > > > > > > > There isn't consensus on the use of the name: tag. I think there several > > suggestions have been floated: > > • always use the name that is used in Welsh > > • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is what > > the wiki currently suggests) > > • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a hyphen > > (which is the practice in some other countries) > > • use the name on local signage > > We have had advice that OSM should maintain neutrality. I'm sure that is > > the sensible position to aim for. This tends to point us to using the name > > on local signage or the name used by the "local population". > > > > From my perspective identifying the name used by the local population is > > likely to be fraught in many cases and so a mapper would probably be best > > advised to refer to local signage. > > > > Local signage will frequently show the cy: name and the en: name. > > > > So I *think* this might be pointing us towards suggesting the name: tag > > should reflect local signage. This would inevitably lead to more dual > > naming in the name: tag. > > > > > > What does everyone think? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 5:08 PM Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Gruff, hi Ben, > > > > On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote: > >> > >> The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful for > >> this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a single name > >> tag for each place name - giving the impression that one language has > >> precedence over another. > > Well, we really don't need to choose that "one language has precedence over > > another". If the :cy and :en data is mapped it's available for everyone to > > use. It's entirely possible, right now, to create a map using only :cy > > names (as Ben and Andy have pointed out, https://openstreetmap.cymru/ does > > exactly that already). Other maps can choose to use :en names in one area > > and :cy in others (see > > https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=9&lat=51.93&lon=-4.182 > > for an example of that), or hyphenate names Welsh-first or English-first, > > or use different colours for different languages, or, or... > > > > The whole point of OSM is that it is more than just one map. > > > >> > >> With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If we > >> accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and that OSM > >> is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to respect > >> native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't. Could we > >> take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place names > >> where that's possible? > > OpenStreetMap's approach to disputed territories tries to be neutral - see > > https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf > > . It favours "on the ground" current usage. The Data Working Group gets > > _lots_ of requests along the lines of "the official language of country X > > is Y, therefore all placenames in country X should be displayed at osm.org > > in language Y". Where the majority of people in an area speak a different > > language to the majority of people in the rest of the country, it is only > > fair to reflect that local language in the "name" tag. OSM should not be > > making decisions about which placenames are more "authentic" than others > > via some sort of "historical authenticity test". Imagine trying to apply > > that to Kaliningrad https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1674442 (look at > > all the "old_name" tags there for context). In Wales, OSM has occasionally > > had mappers making "forced language changes" both ways - either changing > > names in predominantly English-speaking areas to Welsh versions of the > > original English and English speakers changing original (and most common in > > local usage) Welsh names to English versions. > > > >> One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance from an external > >> body. Does the Welsh Government have a position on place names that we can > >> refer to? I notice that the Welsh Language Commissioner provides a > >> recommended list of standardised place names for Wales which is licensed > >> under OGL 3.0: > >> > >> http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx > > Different OSM communities do this in different ways. I believe that in > > Ireland name:ga is usually the "official" version, which may differ from > > local usage. Sometimes that loses some local colour - in Dublin "Anglesea > > Road" used to be signed as "Bóthar Môn" but now in OSM it's just "Bóthar > > Anglesea". See also https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 which I've > > heard referred to as "Dingle / An Daingean" (there's lots of politics both > > national and local associated with that). > > > >> > >> All of the above is written with the big caveat that I'm new to OSM and > >> not a Welsh language or place name expert in any way, I wouldn't go > >> against the group decision on this and have been quite conservative with > >> my edits so far because I know it's a huge topic to get into. Overall I > >> think you should be congratulated for broaching the subject and trying to > >> pin down a policy on it as it really does stir up a lot of strong > >> sentiment in this part of the world! > > As I'm sure Ben and Mapio Cymru would echo, thanks for making sure that > > Welsh names of places are recorded where they currently are not. It always > > strikes me as a bit jarring to see English names jumping out in > > predominantly Welsh areas at https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ (which will use > > the default "name" tag if name:cy is missing in areas where it's trying to > > show Welsh names). > > > > Moving on to Ben's original mail: > > > > On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:06, Ben Proctor <b...@benproctor.co.uk> wrote: > >> > >> From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion, > >> replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows): > >> > >> [starts/---] > >> In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the place is > >> widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not both. So > >> name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru. > > Where I suspect there may be further questions is where a place is known in > > Welsh-speaking areas as one name and in English-speaking areas as another. > > In OSM typically the "name" tag would be set according to the locally-used > > language, so "Yr Wyddfa" for https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1745517169 > > makes sense to me. > > > > That gets tricky for areas that include multiple languages - > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/58437 is currently "name=Cymru / > > Wales" in OSM, but I'll let people who are actually from that area comment > > on whether that's appropriate or not. > > > > > > > >> > >> name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is > >> known in English. > >> name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or feature is > >> known in Welsh > >> > >> Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example: > >> > >> name: Swansea > >> name:en Swansea > >> name:cy Abertawe > >> > >> This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so rather > >> than duplication is conveying useful new information. > >> [---/ends] > > I'd agree that that bit (duplicating names) does make sense for essentially > > the same reasons as you - so that people do know that "yes there is an > > English name" and "yes there is a Welsh name". Otherwise if someone was to > > change the name there to "name=Swansea / Abertawe" it would break > > map.atownsend.org.uk which explicitly tries not to show compound names in > > Wales, England or Scotland. Someone who does want to show compound names > > can of course do that using "name:cy / name:en". For completeness, as you > > also mention, some OSM communities do use compound names. The Brussels > > region of Belgium is another example, and hyphenated names there are I > > believe "the official names". That sort of tagging hasn't traditionally > > been done in Wales, England, or Scotland though. > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Andy > > > > For completeness - I'm both a member of OSM's Data Working Group who tend > > to handle some of these language disputes and separately to that the > > developer of https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ . > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Talk-GB mailing list > > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > _______________________________________________ > > Talk-GB mailing list > > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb _______________________________________________ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
