Le dimanche 5 décembre 2010, Michał Borsuk <michal.bor...@gmail.com> a écrit : > > > On 5 December 2010 08:07, Andrei Klochko <transportspl...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hello, > > > But, at least in french law, as far as the opinions of the lawyers I > consulted about this question were correct, any individual or company has the > right, to download one by one the timetables - and transportation plans! - of > any transport company, to extract the data (timetables: only the data itself, > and plans: only the path of the buses, of course, but that's all that is > needed!) from its support and presentation, and to incorporate it in any > database we want, without asking any permission. If we do it "one by one": We > have to recreate the database so as not to violate any right! > I would double-check this. Normally (i.e. in many countries with legal > systems similar to that of France) one is allowed to download > "non-sequentially" (one-by-one, but not in a manner suggesting copying the > entire dataset), but not allowed to recreate the database.
I know, of course I realized it sounded weird, that is why I added as much precision as i could when having these lawyears (2, both of them specialized in french- and, if it wasn't for the transposition of the rights, I would say european- intellectual property), i said "you're sure you know what i'm trying to do with this, i want, ultimately, to recreate their database!", but as they told me, it's pretty much as if someone was calling one by one all the phone numbers he could call, and then register this information in a database : he would recreate a substantial part of the phone book, but he would do it himself. The point is, a database is not protected by the only fact that it exists: his owner has to prove that "he took the initiative, and the risk, to collect, to rearrange and to present this database". Which means, a small company, with only a limited number of timetables, could fail to prove that the investment to produce its timetables, was really bug enough to justify protection. Beyond the value of the information, if it only took one afternoon to one employee, to make these timetables, then - i guess - it would fail to get the protection of the database law. To that extent, ut would be like movie timetables in the cinemas: they are too few data to get protection. And wether, after collecting all this data, you happen to recreate someone's database - for exemple allocine's database - is none of anyone's concern : you collected the data from separate sources, which all, one by one, did not spend enougj investment to get protection of their data: it has no author rights because the data itself, being constrained by a direct utilitary goal, has no originality in itself, to the extent that "it does not reflect any part of the personnality of its author"; and it is no personal data, as would be phone numbers or adresses. So the only protection possible is purely the one concerning "database producers", as described above. What i just told you before, is precisely the point that i'm checking at the moment: how much sand do you need to start calling its whole, "a stack"; how big does a set of timetables have to be, what complexity should it reach, to earn the "needed subsequent effort, risk, AND investment on the behalf of the transporter. But, as you know it, lawyears do not iperate on weekends, so i will have to wait tomorrow to find out, as i didn't find yet any previous judgements involving, in a really unclear way, this kind of question: as far as I know, in France, everytime there has been a lawsuit about database right, the quality of the database representing a subsequent investment, was hardly the main question: everytime, it was almost obvious. It had never been treated yet, such cases where someone would be collecting together a lot of quasi-databases... > > Because I have indeed tried to ask permissions from the public transport > operators to use their timetables and plans. But I must be bad at asking, > I share your experience. I tried asking Mobiliteit in Luxembourg, they never > answered. My local administrative body was so confused about my question that > I first used their data, and then sent them a paper to sign. I would have > never got the permission to use the data, partially out of the German > national fear of anything new. > > And I also suspect that there is simple jealousy. People administering public > transport usually have nice governmental jobs, and YOU come here and demand > something. You may be uncovering the fact that what could be done by one > freak is now being done by 5 individuals, all with the wrong tools. That's what is weird: as i happen to come from a school of engineers in France, i contacted a former student who has entered veolia transport, up to a high rank, to have one of my two "forced answers", and if i could have been able to formalize what he told me in a contract, i would have my authorisation! I think (at least for France, i can't say about Germany) that people are not answering me for three reasons: first, almost always, as i understood it, they think that i want their "timetable database file", which is a thing that is internal to the company, and that, just as you said it, they won't give it like that because it has value. But when they understand that i only want permission to re-use publicly available one-by-one timetables, then, they would (first) think that this is stupid because it's too much unnecessary work (second reason) but mainly, they may realize that i am just a freak, who doesn't know a thing about what he is doing, mainly because if indeed i have the right to copy their timetables without asking permission, then they would probably know it too, and clearly. And they would think, just as you said it some messages ago, "does this boy really know what he is getting into? Concurrencing google transit itself, and all the other already big players of the sector? For his own sake, i will let it go unanswered"... The point is, if I really could take all these timetables, and the routes, all by myself, then simply by crawling on the web i could gather a lot. But then, it would be weird that google wouldn't have done the same. With all their might, they can afford all the best lawyears they want, and if it was possible, then i think they would have done it by now. However, there may be some non-trivialties: i think that big firms like google do not want to risk lawsuit on a slippery domain as database rights, and if they have the slightest doubt about them being in their right, then they won't do anything. I simply think there hve been to few lawsuits with tight outcomes - when one side is at the very limit of its iwn right - to make any authority in this domain, especially in america where everything is done over previous judgements. So we may still have a starting advantage, if first we document ourselves really well, and second, if someone takes the responsibility of the "first try". And about that, i think i could do it...i have nothing to lose, as i induce no loss of benefits on the side of the companies...but i still have to document myself a little! Good sunday evening Andrei > > > > > -- > Best regards, mit freundlichen Grüssen, meilleurs sentiments, Pozdrowienia, > > Michał Borsuk > _______________________________________________ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit