Louis: I had hoped (and in your case expected) that you would have at least started your response by acknowledging your deriding of supposed Western "stereotypes" in relation to China and religion should have been considerably more nuanced, given that country's record of persecution of religious groups. Instead you react defensively, quoting just those parts of your original post that suit your defence, as if that suffices to extenuate your relatively rosy portrait of religious life in China today, and your deriding of supposed "stereotypes" that are in fact in accord with much of the history of the Chinese People's Republic. This despite my linking to evidence of quite recent persecution and brutality as reported in the article from the Guardian in 2004.
>But, Buddhism is practiced openly and without >any restriction or government interference. How do you know that? Because you were told so on your visit? Or you saw some instances, though you can't know from such a visit what happens to those who do not choose to be part of the officially sanctioned organisations. Have you learned nothing from the history of previous visitors to the USSR and China, the astonishing record of whom is recorded in the book to which I linked: http://tinyurl.com/332dbz7 Buddhists in Tibet (officially an integral part of China) might also be interested to be informed that they are allowed to practice "without any restriction or government interference": China - Amnesty International Report 2007 Tibetans in the Tibet Autonomous Region and other areas experienced severe restrictions on their rights to freedom of religious belief, expression and association, and discrimination in employment. Many were detained or imprisoned for observing their religion or expressing opinions, including Tibetan Buddhist monks and nuns. http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/china/report-2007 >But, memories die hard. Christianity in the minds of many >Chinese s still equated with western colonialism and >imperialism--that "white man's burden" stuff--an imperialism >that was heavily tinted with a Christian view that denigrated >Chinese culture as paganist, and "woggish." Astonishing! This is supposed to be in partial *mitigation* of brutal repression and lengthy imprisonment of *Chinese* Christians even up to the current century, as reported in two articles to which I linked. Are the Chinese Christians who have been treated harshly and in all too many cases imprisoned for long periods since the establishment of the People's Republic in 1949 responsible for any of that? And no doubt the repression of Buddhism in the People's Republic until relatively recently was understandable because… because… Oh! there must be *something* to cite in mitigation, it can't possibly be because of Mao's ideological campaign against religion. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org --------------------------- Re: [tips] Random Thought: China Diary, Ourselves Louis E. Schmier Fri, 22 Oct 2010 02:41:43 -0700 I did say "permitted religions" and I did say "no 1st amendment here." That means no practicing of full religious freedom. But, Buddhism is practiced openly and without any restriction or government interference. But, memories die hard. Christianity in the minds of many Chinese is still equated with western colonialism and imperialism--that "white man's burden" stuff--an imperialism that was heavily tinted with a Christian view that denigrated Chinese culture as paganist, and "woggish." You can feel its strong remnants especially in Hong Kong. Make it a good day -Louis- -------------------- Re:[tips] Random Thought: China Diary, Ourselves Allen Esterson Fri, 22 Oct 2010 01:28:39 -0700 On 21 October 2010 Louis Schmier wrote: >A few mornings ago I cut out a Buddhist saying from the >"approved" English language newspaper, China Daily, >of all places. Buddhism is one of the five "permitted" >religions --no 1st amendment here-- in what so many >Americans think is atheistic, communist China! How about >that! Talk about attacking stereotypes! "Stereotypes"? Louis, surely as an historian with a knowledge of the thousands of well-meaning people visiting Stalin's Soviet Union and Mao's China who were duped into returning with glowing stories about the "reality" of those countries, you should know better. Wondrous were the accounts of eminent visitors to Stalinist USSR by the likes of George Bernard Shaw et al.: http://tinyurl.com/332dbz7 Of course things have improved beyond measure in China in recent times, but persecution continues for those who do not fall into line (politically and religiously). And the "stereotyping" you seem to deplore was an all-too-accurate view. >From the not-so-distant past: BBC News 9 November 2004 China's Christians suffer for their faith "They hung me up across an iron gate, then they yanked open the gate and my whole body lifted until my chest nearly split in two. I hung like that for four hours." That is how Peter Xu Yongze, the founder of one of the largest religious movements in China, described his treatment during one of five jail sentences on account of his belief in Christianity. Mr Xu, 61, is not the only Chinese Christian to suffer for his faith. Both Catholics and Protestants have long complained of persecution by the Communist authorities, and human rights groups claim the problem is getting worse. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3993857.stm More recently: Guardian 19 August 2008 It is unarguable that China today is very different from 30 years ago. Under Mao Zedong's rule, the church was driven completely underground… And [today] even the experience of those who choose to attend unregistered house churches varies. In some parts of the country, the authorities more or less leave them alone, while in others they crack down harshly. […] In the months leading up to the Olympics, the Chinese government launched an intense campaign against Christians. In February, 21 prominent Christian leaders were sentenced to re-education through labour in what one agency, China Aid Association, described as the largest mass sentencing of house church leaders in 25 years. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/19/religion.humanrights And the present: Asia News 16 October 2010 Beijing (AsiaNews / Agencies) - Beijing has prohibited a delegation of approximately 200 Protestant churches from travelling to Cape Town (South Africa) to attend the 3rd World Congress on Evangelization in Lausanne, which runs until October 25. They are all churches that refuse to become members of the Patriotic Three-Self Church, the religious organization headed by the State to gather together all Protestant denominations. […] It was to have been the first time that Chinese house churches participated at an international congress since 1949. Typically, these groups keep a low profile to avoid persecution and intimidation, just because they want to live free of official government interference. […] http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Chinese-Christians-banned-from-attending-Protestant-World-Congress-19742.html Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London allenester...@compuserve.com http://www.esterson.org --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=5890 or send a blank email to leave-5890-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
