Charles Perry Locke wrote:
The RCC needed reformation because it was broken, not missing.
Plus, as several have told you, there always has been a true church that existed outside the RCC.
I do not believe that the restituion of all things has anything to so with the LDS.
DAVEH: I understand that, Perry. Furthermore, even though that is my belief, I am not trying to promote it here. What I am trying to do is find out why the early Reformers did not claim the RCC folks had apostasies instead of just suggesting their doctrines were broken.
Just another LDS prooftext.
DAVEH: I humbly believe you do not understand the nature of my questions, Perry. May I suggest (again, humbly) that you address the question I ask, instead of the question you perceive I'm asking and let's see if we can have a more meaningful discussion......please!
In fact, the only references to restoring all things I found were in Matthew and Luke, when it states that Elijah will restore all things...do you consider JS to be Elijah?
DAVEH: No.
If not, please give ma a chapter and verse.
DAVEH: ??? I do not understand. You want me to give you chapter/verse for a negative answer?
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Last Days Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:59:55 -0800
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
If I may add a comment, there is a difference between reformation and restoration. The protestant movement was a reformation...JS' movement was a restoration. I see them as quite different.
DAVEH: I understand that, Perry. I'm trying to figure out why they went with a reformation instead of a restoration. Seems like the Bible suggests there would be a restitution (restoration) of all things, rather than a reformation. Wouldn't it have been more Biblical for the Reformers to think in restitution/restoration terms? Is there Biblical evidence to suggest a reformation?
Luther thought the church had gone astray,
DAVEH: Yes.....That seems like a perfect reason to suggest an apostasy had taken place in/by the RCC. I'm surprised the Reformers did not consider such.
and reformed it to correct doctrinal error. JS thought the church had totally apostatized, so totally resored it. I dfon;t think the two can be compared.
DAVEH: I wasn't trying to compare them. To me the restoration makes perfect sense from the Biblical evidence of an apostasy, and subsequent restitution. Yet the Reformers evidently didn't see it that way, but rather preferred to consider that the RCC folks simply strayed a bit and needed some reforming instead of restoring what was lost.
I agree with Luther (in that the church had gone astray, and that reformation was due),
DAVEH: Since you agree with the early Reformers, then perhaps you can answer my questions about it......assuming you understand what I'm asking. Forget about JS for a moment.....And consider the RCC folks. Do you think they just had some bad doctrine that evolved over the years? Or.....do you view them as apostates from the Primitive Church? And, if they were Apostates....then wouldn't a restoration have made sense from the Reformers' (or your) perspective? If not, there must be some Biblical reason you/Reformers did not think a restitution is/was necessary.....
but not JS.
DAVEH: Listen Perry.....I understand that few TTers have any sympathy for JS. I'm not trying to promote him in TT. I'm not asking you to believe him or his teachings. But, my curiosity is certainly biased by what I know and believe about his teachings....forgive me for that. What interests me though is what reasons (Biblical) you (and Protestants in general) believe the way you do when it seems so odd to me. I hope that makes sense. For instance, I see the Bible speak about a falling away (apostasy) and the need for a restitution (restoration) of all things, and it fits into my theological and Biblical inclinations. I hear your thinking about the RCC having some skewed doctrines that needed reformed, and then the Reformers making some minor changes.....and I don't see that in the Bible. It is not that I'm trying to hit you over the head with this.....I'm just trying to figure out why you see it your way when I see it another way and we both are viewing it from a Biblical perspective.
Perry
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