I have changed the subject line from Christian Perfection to Justification because in my judgment we have changed this thread sufficiently to warrant this.
DaveH wrote: > Jesus gave the requirements.... and as I see it, > many Christians want to minimize the importance > and necessity of some of those requirements. We agree that many Christians do lower the standard of God and want to minimize the importance of holiness. Nevertheless, there is something you are not seeing here, and that is how man's works are all dead works and worthless before God. Our righteousness is like filthy rags before Him. David Miller wrote: >> Something like, "God saves us after we have >> done all that we can do." DaveH wrote: > And, pray tell.......what is wrong with that statement? The problem is that this statement mixes law and grace in a dysfunctional way. I would say that God saves us after we have stopped trying to do all that we can do. DaveH wrote: > Does it not apply to Protestant theology too? Some of it, yes. The problem of mixing law and grace existed in the churches of Galatia and has continued being a problem in churches throughout history. Mormons are not the only ones who struggle with this problem, but they justify it with their theology, and that is very dangerous. DaveH wrote: > If you don't have faith, DavidM.....can one be saved? No. DaveH wrote: > According to what Terry implied in a parallel post > today, repentance, obedience and good works are all > a part of faith. (Do you disagree?) They are connected, yes, but we see the connection much differently. For example, I think it is very important to see repentance as a foundation for faith, but Mormons reverse it. You guys say faith comes first and then follows repentance. I think you do this because you don't really understand what faith is. Faith to you guys is some kind of mental agreement with God. If we get down to it, repentance and faith cannot co-exist. Faith is confidence in God. Repentance is a response to sin, and there is no confidence in God with repentance. There is a sense of worthlessness and failure and a need to be redeemed. During the repentance phase, man feels separated from God, but when man is filled with faith he feels in communion with God. During repentance there is a tearing down and a destroying of old things, but faith builds up and establishes the new. Therefore, it is very important to see that repentance is foundational for the operation of faith. Unfortunately, Mormon revelation contradicts this perspective and makes it difficult for its disciples to experience true faith, the kind of faith that heals the sick, raises the dead, and causes us to walk in purity and holiness all the time. DaveH wrote: > Now, if you do all those things.....does that > save you? Not in my opinion. Yet if you do > none of them, do you think you will be saved? > So.....it seems to me that you believe Jesus > saves you even if you aren't able to exhibit > faith enough of a mustard seed. IOW.....you > do what you can to exercise your faith, and > Jesus will save you. Isn't that what you > believe? Sorry, Dave, but I cannot make much sense out of what you just said. :-) I can say that I do not believe that Jesus saves me even if I am not able to exhibit faith of a mustard seed. Also, yes, I believe that I do what I can to believe, but that does not mean that I look for ways to have more good works. It means that I cherish a personal relationship with Christ and expect him to bring forth whatever works it is that he wants me to do. I try and live like Jesus did, and do nothing that I do not first see the Father do. DaveH wrote: > where is that philosophy fail? Are you saved if you > do absolutely nothing? IOW.....NO FAITH = SALVATION > .....? I doubt you believe that. This might be semantics, but yes, I do believe that a person is saved if they do absolutely nothing. At the point of their faith in God, they are saved. They experience a change inside of them. That is why we say that they are saved now. It is experiential. This happens when they have done absolutely nothing. Now I say it might be semantics because when this happens, we will see the changes reflected in how they live. However, those changes are a result of them now being a new person on the inside. Their heart is changed. Faith is not trying methodically to reason what would be good and pleasing to God and then trying to perform it. Faith is simply trust and confidence in God and his Word. David Miller wrote: >> My perception is that nobody can be saved with >> this attitude that Mormons and many Protestants >> have. Many of us here believe in repentance from >> dead works. This is a deep realization that we >> can do NOTHING. DAVEH: > Nonsense. Without faith, repentance and enduring > to the end, there is no salvation. (And if you > disagree with any of that, DavidM....please tell > me.) Yes, I do disagree. Some will not "endure to the end" and yet be saved. For example, death bed conversions would be in this category. Now I would agree that everyone must repent and believe (in that order), but in saying this I am not defining repent as bringing forth good works right then and there, but rather as a change of heart, being sorry for past sins and desiring a Savior. DaveH wrote: > What many don't understand (IMHO) is that IF it were > not for Jesus' atoning sacrifice AND resurrection, > NOTHING we could do on our own would save us. That > hardly negates the need for us to do something > signifying acceptance of that grace from our Savior. I understand your point, and agree with you in regards to your specific words, but I think Scripture goes further than this when it contrasts saving grace without works and works of righteousness found in the law. In other words, I don't disagree with your statement but I think you still lack understanding in this area. David Miller wrote: >> Only by a person realizing that all his efforts are >> vain and dead can he put the kind of absolute trust >> in Christ that is necessary. DAVEH: > You make it sound like there is a lot of doubt about > Jesus' ability to save us, and that we are busy trying > to save ourselves by doing good works. I don't view it > that way at all. I'm not trying to say that you have a lot of doubt about Jesus' ability. I'm saying that you appear to operate in a way that puts confidence in your own ability to be pleasing to God. Let me try an analogy. Suppose you were in a skating race but your skates were a little defective and somewhat rusty. All you need is a drop of oil on the ball bearings and you would win the race. Well, Jesus drops that oil in there, and voila, you win the race. This analogy would seem to accord with your perspective that Jesus saves you after you have done all that you can do. It also accords well with your viewpoint that without Jesus, there is NOTHING you could do to save yourself. Jesus had that drop of oil and you could not have done it without that drop of oil. Now from my perspective, salvation is very different. What happens is that we are trying to get to the moon with those skates. We have it all wrong. Repentance is realizing that those skates are useless to get us to the moon. We take them off and throw them away. Then Jesus puts us in a rocket ship and takes us to the moon. Those others who keep trying to use their skates and maybe look at Jesus hoping for that drop of oil so they can get to the moon have missed it. Jesus looks at them trying to use their skates and views them as foolish and wants nothing to do with them. Do you understand any better how our views differ? The skates are like the religious systems that men erect for themselves. It is man's way of trying to approach God and be pleasing to him. The skates can't get us to heaven, but some religions keep maintaining that these skates are a help to get us there even though they need a little help from Jesus too. DaveH wrote: > To me, Jesus provided a map on how to get > back to heaven. Those who follow it, will > be accepted there. Yeah, but for some reason, it seems to me like you don't seem to know how to read the map. :-) The first message of Jesus was repent. The second message was believe the gospel. You got it backwards. It is like you claim to look at the map but you can't see that the map shows I-75 connecting with I-10. DaveH wrote: > Those who don't won't find there way back there. > His grace built the bridges that span the chasms > that prevent us from achieving that goal. As I tried to explain earlier in this post, I think grace is needed for much more than that. I understand what you are saying, but it only underscores my perception that you do not understand man's fallen condition or how much grace he really needs. You are looking at a road map to get to heaven, but there are not any roads that lead to heaven. You need a rocket ship. Do you understand what I am trying to say? If you spend all your time looking at the road map, the rocket ship to heaven is going to leave without you. :-) DaveH wrote: > As I've suggested before, DavidM......works does > not in themselves save us, but rather it is our > works that signify our acceptance of the grace > of our Saviour's atoning sacrifice. I hope you understand that we agree on this point. However, this does not fit in with your road map example very well. If grace only builds brides over chasms that would otherwise be impassable, then works do much more than just signify and acceptance of grace. Works are the actual means of salvation with grace being a necessary assistant. After all, grace only built the bridges, but you had to travel the roads and cross those bridges. DaveH wrote: > As an example, it is my opinion that those who are > not baptized, are not taking upon themselves the > birth, death and sacrifice of Jesus.....and in > essence, they effectively are not signing their > name to the covenant. That is why Jesus explained > the importance and relationship of baptism and > salvation in both Mk 16:16 and Jn 3:5. I know you > have rationalized both passages to harmonize with > preconceived Protestant beliefs, I do not think that I have done that. I have read the passages and think that I understand them for what they say. DaveH wrote: > but to me it seems obvious the Bible message suggests > baptism is related to symbolically washing away sins. I too believe that baptism is related to symbolically washing away sins. We have had this discussion many times but you still do not understand my perspective. DaveH wrote: > Faith alone is inadequate to do that, even if > it is sufficient to move mountains. With this statement, you disconnect baptism and faith whereas I do not. I see baptism as a vehicle for expressing faith. Baptism is to faith what a car is to gasoline. DaveH wrote: > Repentance may change one's life to avoid repeating > sinful living, but it does not remove one's sins. > That comes by virtue of the atonement. I agree with this. DaveH wrote: > And to avail one's self of the atoning sacrifice > of our Saviour, requires a covenant. IMHO..... > that covenant is ratified by baptism of both water > and the Holy Spirit. And I agree somewhat with this. I believe that faith expressed through baptism is a ratifying of a covenant with Christ. The response to this on Christ's part would be the giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit. The way in which we differ on this, based upon past conversations, is that you believe that without water baptism there can be no covenant. To me that is kind of like saying that God only has written contracts but no verbal contracts. I do not believe that God operates this way. I perceive other ways in which faith might be expressed and in which the covenant might be established. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
