Hi John. I feel that this one paragraph you wrote has a lot of spin on it, so I just want to try an frame it a little more objectively.
John wrote: > From time to time I see or I think I > see a condenscending spirit. I do not think that I am any better than you or anybody else on this list (well, maybe I think I'm better than Izzy's cat), so perhaps what you are seeing are just terse opinionated statements and nothing more than that. Is that possible in your mind? You know, this list isn't about who is better than anyone else. It is about learning. John wrote: > ... All I know is when I finish some of your responses > to me, they have left me more than frustrated. I try to be challenging in my posts in order to bring about some learning, so I am not surprised if you feel that way. John wrote: > They were in fact hurtful. Hurtful? How so? Was it just that you felt unable to concede a point, or did you feel like I was being malicious toward you? John wrote: > When you debate me, your attitude is > one of " sudden death." I will make > a statement or observation and your > response will include an immediate demand > for me to retract or surrender to your demands. Yes, I take the conversations as serious paths to truth, and so I do not believe in allowing others to make statements without any accountability for what they have said. If I am pushing you too far, however, I will likely back off. It is not my intent to discourage you to the point of "sudden death." I'm hoping right now that you will catch the idea of sound doctrine and realize that this attitude of "respond with instruction or repent" is a good thing. It helps save us from the game of politics. John wrote: > I call that condenscension. I call it holding men accountable for every word that they say. What do you think the difference is between holding men accountable for what they say and being snobby toward them? Do you really see me as a snob? John wrote: > Genereally, I do not intend that any of my > remarks be taken personally -- but,. perhaps > because of your belief that you do not sin or > harbor sinful attitudes, you can not help but > take it personally. To my knowledge, I have never taken anything that you have said personally. You have never made a personal remark toward me that I can remember. However, I do take the idea of sin very seriously. If I have an ongoing problem with sin on this list, something that seems obvious to you, then I expect you to show it forth as the light of God would. If you can't do that, then you should repent of evil surmisings. I know you don't like being put into that position, but I believe that this approach is Godly. This is what street preachers do and why I support street preaching. John wrote: > I do know that you take what I say in a > much more personal way than intended --- > in a much more personal way than anyone > else on this list. I am not aware of taking anything you have said in a personal way. I take seriously God's Word and the issue of sin. This is probably one of the most serious subjects that you can ever take up with me. Furthermore, I would ask you to make this MORE personal because I feel that you are being very ambiguous by not making it personal. If you perceive me to be sinning on this list when I post, and this hinders you from believing God's Holy Word concerning Jesus Christ being manifested to take away your sins, then that is something we need to deal with. You should take this up privately with me, quote my posts that exhibit sin, rebuke me for it, and call me to repentance. Sin is a serious issue and we need to deal with it. One big reason I am not taking it personal is because I think as we discuss this, you will find that there has been no sin in my posts to this list. John wrote: > You are a sinner and continue to come up short > of the God nature you want to imitate (Ro. 3:23) > ... Perhaps if we just discuss scripture, we can > keep our discussions on track. I will give it my > best effort. Hope you will be able to do likewise. Ok, John, that sounds like a good idea. If you want to drop everything that has gone before and start over, then let's start with this Romans 3:23 passage and get back on track. Let's consider this passage in its context: Rom 3:9 ... we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known: Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Now notice first that the context here is about Jew and Gentile. The concept being communicated is that it is not just Gentiles who are sinners, which was the mindset of some Jews who saw themselves as called of God and righteous by election. Rather, it is "both Jews and Gentiles ... they are all under sin" (Rom. 3:1). Note Rom. 3:22, "for there is no difference..." No difference? What is he talking about? No difference between Jew and Gentile. So Romans 3:23 is to sum up that ALL, meaning BOTH JEW AND GENTILE, have sinned and come short of God's glory. Notice that the tense is PAST TENSE. They HAVE sinned. This is a pre-Christ situation. Another thing to look at in this passage is his description from Psalm 14 which he quotes in context. You are so quick to quote this passage and say that you and everyone else continues to sin, but are you so quick to say that the following applies to you also? Rom 3:11 Would you say that since you have met Christ that you have no understanding? Would you say that you do not seek after God since you met Christ? Rom 3:12 Would you say that since you have met Christ, you are gone out of the way? Have you become altogether unprofitable since coming to know Jesus Christ? Do you say that you do not do good and neither does any other Christian? Rom 3:13 Do you say that since you came to Christ, your throat is an open grave? Is your tongue now used for deceit? Is the poison of asps under your lips, since you came to faith in Jesus Christ? Rom 3:14 Now that you have come to know Christ, do you find that your mouth is full of cursing and bitterness? Rom 3:15 Since you came to Christ, is your feet now swift to shed blood? Who have you killed this week? Rom 3:16 Since coming to Christ, is destruction and misery characteristic of your ways? Rom 3:17 So now that you are in Christ, would you say that you do not know the way of peace? Rom 3:18 Now that you have faith in Christ, is it true that you have no fear of God before your eyes? My point is that if you follow this passage in its context, you will see the absurdity and the insult to God it becomes to claim that any of this describes the life we have when we come to faith in Jesus Christ. Faith in Jesus Christ DELIVERS us from all these things. We cannot and should not take a verse like Romans 3:23 that refers to past sin exposed by the law and use it like a crutch to justify and condone present ongoing sin in the life of a Christian. Please read the questions prefaced by the references that I just asked above, and please tell me that you are not all these things. If you are these things, then we need to talk in a very different way to one another, but if this miserable life described in these passages pertain to your past life and not your present life since coming to faith in Jesus Christ, then you and me should be in agreement about Rom. 3:23. Another thing to consider and that is the message Paul gives us in the sixth chapter of this same letter. Following are some important highlights: Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Did you hear that? Shall we continue to sin? Certainly NOT! How can we who are DEAD TO SIN, live any longer in sin? Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Did you hear that? As Christ was raised from the dead, even so we also should walk in NEWNESS OF LIFE! Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Did you hear that? HENCEFORTH WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN! Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Hallelujah! Did you hear that? He that is dead is FREED FROM SIN, and WE ARE DEAD WITH CHRIST. We are FREED FROM SIN! Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: ... Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Did you hear that? Do not let sin REIGN in your MORTAL BODY. Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Did you hear that? SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU! Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Shall we sin? NO! Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Did you hear that? If you yield yourself to sin, the result is death, but if obedience, then the result is righteousness. Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Catch the tense now... ye WERE the servants of sin... Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. How did we become servants of righteousness? By being made FREE FROM SIN! Are you FREE FROM SIN? Enough for now. Hopefully, you can see my point. You cannot snatch a verse here or a verse there out of context and justify sin with it. The context of Rom. 3:23 shows it to be talking about the need for Christ, and the letter later affirms that Paul expects followers of Christ to be free of sin and to walk in righteousness and holiness. He is not teaching anything here that should be understood to say that those in Christ will continue to sin and continue to fall short of the glory of God. Christ died so that we would be able to manifest the glory of God, not so we could feel ok about falling short of it. It's late here John. I hope I haven't hurt you or made you feel bad, but I do hope that I have provoked you to think about your perspective of Rom. 3:23. Even if you do not change your view, I am going to continue to challenge your viewpoint on this as long as you are up to the challenge. It is very important for Christians to become of one mind concerning holiness and our ability in Christ to receive it and walk in it. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
