The more you stir crap, the more it stinks :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 10:37:10 -0500
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Terry, let me put it in perspective for you.
I also have a sense of humour, Terry Kudos to you for an excellent point by point response to CPL. Folks, people, pharisees!! May we please move on?? Please?
----- Original Message -----From: Terry CliftonSent: November 27, 2005 10:26Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Terry, let me put it in perspective for you.Charles Perry Locke wrote:Terry, here is my point. please take the time to read it. Answer my questions to yourself, then please repond and let me know if you get my point in this whole ordeal. I will answer as honestly as I can.
Terry, would you consider having a similar conversation in your sunday school class? Let you mind wander to your sunday school class, if you attend one, or a prayer meeting or some other church function you attend: I would not initiate such a conversation, in Sunday school or anywhere else, but if someone else did, I would not have a cow.
Would you be at all shocked if Sunday morning a woman, lets say "Irma", in your class asked of another member, Ray, "How about during sex, Ray? I?ve read that you?re supposed to leave them [your underwear] on then, too. True or false?" Would anyone be shocked at this? Would you? I would consider th is to be in poor taste anywhere. A little surprised maybe, but
certainly not shocked
What if Ray responds, "Do you really think it is appropriate to discuss such personal things [in a sunday school class] that is known for its lack of taste at times? If you really want to know the answer to personal questions such as that, contact me [after sunday school] and I'll answer your question."
[ Ray starts to take the right tack, but then offers to answer the question in private! Does this seem appropriate to you, Terry?] Yes, it does. If this bunch is offended, take it private so they won't all have a stroke.
Then Irma says, "You know I'll tell!".
[Irma is playing with Ray. Terry, does that seem appropriate?] I thought that that was a humorous reply. Nothing inappropriate about it.
Then Ray responds, "Wow Irma......I am rather surprised to hear you say that! But it is nice to know you are not so hypo critical that you would not be willing to [discuss in Sunday School] such personal things as you expect me to share. Now that I think about it Irma, I'm sure it would be much more interesting for TTers to hear about your sexual experiences than mine. Do tell! "
[ Now, Ray asks irma to relate HER sexual experiences. Does this seem appropriate to you, Terry?] My turn to ask. Do you honestly think that Dave expected her to comply? Can you not see that this was tongue in cheek?
[And at this point the Ray has focused the discussion on "Irmas Sexual Experiences".]
Suddenly, Jean, being offended by such talk, calls for the teacher, "Where is our teacher? Carlos?"
[Jean is genuinely offended by this type of talk, joking or not! Does this surprise you, Terry?] Yes, it does. I seem to be the only one here that can discern between humor done in poor taste and the unforgiveable sin.
To which Ray quickly quips, " Do you suppose Carlos will know anything about them [Irma's sexual experiences], Jean?!?!"
[ Ray is now taking Jean's sincere call for moderation from he teacher, and turning it into an extremely dirty and suggestive question regarding the teacher, Carlos, and Irma. Does this seem appropriate, Terry? Before you answer, rememebr, Ray is only joking! Is this type of joking appropriate for Chrstians?] Might I suggest that you go work in a prison for a decade, just to get an idea of what extremely dirty and suggestive really is? Poor taste? Yes. Outrageous? I think not.
Now, Terry, if you tell me that this is the kind of sunday School classes YOU attend, I will seriously question the spiritual sincerelty of you and your class members! You all knew Ray was joking, BUT THE JOKES ARE LACIVIOUS and the product of a PERVERSE mind!
I have already expressed my thoughts on the opinion of the Sunday school class. I have had prudes condemn me fo r drinking non alcoholic beer, not wearing a suit to church, and for not wearing a tie to a funeral. My concern is what God thinks and He is everywhere, with the possible exception of some Sunday school classes. I will let Him decide whether these comments came from a perverse mind.
Next, Carlos pulls Ray and Irma aside and asks them to apologize to the class, and especially to Jean, and even to himself for dragging him into it. Even though all knew they were joking, SOME WERE GENUINELY OFFENDED BY THE LACIVIOUS NATURE OF THE JOKING! [Terry, does this seem like the propertime, place, or audience to joke like this?. Terry, should a devout Christian be joking like this at all!] I am getting the opinion that you and Dean are so devout that you won't even smile, let alone joke. Who made the decision that this was lacivious anyway?
After being asked privately to apologize, Irma immediately apologizes for asking such a suggestive question. She did the right thing. Admirable.
But, Ray stands up before the whole class and says, " You bunch of whining cry-babies! You are all faking your offense and there is no way I am going to apologize to anyone who fakes offense at my humor!!! [Terry, does this seem like an arrogant and insensitive response from Ray?] Insensative? Yes, Dave should have humbled himself. Instead, he pointed out your shortcomings. He was no more arrogant than some have been to him.
Would you expect an apology from Ray? Would you feel like he was out of place not only for telling these dirty-minded jokes, but for being insenstive to Jean's genuine offense, for ignoring the teacher's request to apologize, and for standing arrogantly before the whole class and making self-righteous statements? Yes. I would hope for an apology
Or,Terry, would you let it ride and expect everyone to sweep Ray's inappropriate joking under the rug? I would let it die on the vine. The more you stir crap, the more it stinks. And yes, I would say that in a Sunday school class.
Now, while it is true that we are not in Sunday School here on TT, WHY SHOULD WE AS CHRISTIANS BEHAVE ANY DIFFERENTLY HERE THAN WE WOULD IN SUNDAY SCHOOL? I do not behave differently here than I would in Sunday school class.
Based on the illustration above, I accept Izzy's apology for asking the initial question, I stand by my censuring of DaveH for saying what he did, honor Dean's taking offense as genuine, and stand by my request for an apology from Dave, not only to Dean, Izzy, and myself, but to ALL OF TT, and stand by my comment that Dave's response to my request for an apology was arrogant and insensitive.
Terry, do you get my point? I get what you are saying. I just do not agree with you. You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. I doubt that either of us wil l change.
Perry
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Lance Mur says: I have a sense of DaveH that he ain'tgot it in '
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:48:16 -0600
You misunderstood, my friend. My sense of humor was not tittilated. I did not even find it funny. I simply recognized that it was offered as humor with no intention of denigrating Izzy or you. Like I told CD, some people have their button pushed more easily than others. You see a reason to see Dave as someone with a filthy mind. I do not. If that causes you to question my allegiance to my Lord, I can live with it.
Terry
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
So, Terry, if I understand you correctly, your sense of humor is such that it is titillated by someone asking Izzy about her sexual experiences, and suggesting that I know something about them, even humorously, especially before your Christian peers? Hmmm.
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Lance Mur says: I have a sense of DaveH that he ain'tgot it in 'em
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:28:45 -0600
I would like to apologize to everyone for not being offended. I feel so guilty.cd: Little wonder as it was not you wife who was asked these questions-What
Terry
if someone did-How then would you feel then-Also the sinful undertones of
such a question angers the Holy Spirit.Izzy's husband isn't here to defend
his wife so I.... Strange that the Holy Spirit didn't speak to you also as
sin was being prompted.
===========================================================
If my wife was asked the same question by the same person in response to a question that my wife asked him, I would assume that it was good natured kidding of one another. If I perceived his comments to be demeaning or insulting, I would advise him that his comments were uncalled for and ask him to apologize. I did not see that this time and do not expect to ever see such from DaveH. He is probably the closest thing to a gentleman that we have on this list. He and I will never agree on theology, but that is no reason to treat him unfairly. If you do not see it the same way, that is your privilege. We all have little things that drive us up the wall. Terry .
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
