When all of us stand before God at the great white
throne judgment... we have to know where we failed. Noone
will have grounds to accuse Him of
being unloving or unjust because we will have condemned ourselves and
we will know this without anyone having to tell us... So the test is for us
rather than for Him. judyt
To test them
DaveH
DAVEH: ??? Do you not think God
knew their faith, Judy? Why do you think God would need to test them,
since he created them....knowing they would transgress?
Judy Taylor
wrote:
To test them DaveH. Faith is
ALWAYS tested.
He did not plan for them to fall.
DAVEH: If that
is so, then why do you think he placed the tree of knowledge of good and
evil in the Garden of Eden, Terry?
Rather than
go to all the trouble of preparing a remedy for the fall, would it have
not been immensely easier to simply not have put the tree of knowledge of
good and evil in the garden? IOW....there must have been a reason
for God to put the tree there. Seems like it would be
important to understand for what the purpose the Lord placed that tree
there. Why do you think, Terry?
Terry Clifton wrote:
This
seems so obvious that it should be hard to miss, but if you have been
taught otherwise all your life, I suspect it would be hard to
accept. God is omnicient, He knew they would sin. He
did not plan for them to fall. He planned a remedy for the
fall. Big difference. As to their descendents missing the mark,
who knows? All we can do is speculate, and speculation often leads
to
error. =================================================================
Dave
Hansen wrote:
He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for
everyone?
if they had not they would
have saved themselves and the rest of
humanity all of the heartache, suffering,
and misery that has been the human lot since
then.
DAVEH: Thank you two for
your comments, both of which focus in one facet of the A&E
situation of which I am most keen. One of my earliest
religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid made to me in
which he said A&E screwed it up for us by taking the forbidden
fruit. He explained that had they not transgressed, we would all
live forever without experiencing death. Even though the kid was
less than religious later on in life, his comment always struck me as
being intriguing, and now you folks have sparked that fire
again.
I must be missing something about
your (forgive me....but let me say, Protestant) belief about the
fall. If A&E had not transgressed, do you think none of
their descendants would have transgressed? In my experience, the
best way to get a kid to do something, is to forbid him from doing
it! Don't you think that at some point---probably much sooner
than later---one of A&E's children would have fallen? Or do
you believe that of the billions who descended from A&E, none
would ever have transgressed? Just what are the chances of that
happening.....zilch?!?!?!
So....why do most
Christians blame A&E for the misery in the world, when it was
inevitable. From my perspective....not only was it expected, but
it was planned. And.......evidently you believe that as
well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior from
before the world was created.....that it was planned? (Please
let me know if you do not believe such.) Yet you apparently
don't believe that God wanted it to happen that way. Do you see
why your perspective perplexes me? It doesn't seem
logical. Like I said....perhaps I'm missing something about the
way you understand it.....
Judy wrote:
I think they did nto have
to transgress and if they had not they would have saved themselves
and the rest of
humanity all of the heartache, suffering,
and misery that has been the human lot since then. Why would
the Lord
want that for
them/us?
Terry Clifton wrote:
God
hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will never eat liver, no
matter how many onions you use to cover it, no matter how many times
I am given that option. God will give you the option, but it
is not His desire. I think that must be one of the toughest parts of
being God, wanting what is best for His people, yet allowing them to
make choices that bring pain and death.
Look around you.
Child molesters, burglars, robbers, selfishness, starvation,
disease.Do you think that maybe He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it
for everyone?
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: One more fact from your
perspective, Terry.........I assume you believe that God did not
want A&E to sin though, even though he knew they would.
Is that correct?
Terry Clifton wrote:
Just the facts, Dave. Fact one: Adam and Eve did
sin. Fact two: God hates sin. Fact three: Getting
people to sin is the top priority of Satan. It's over.
We know who to blame. Nothing to
discuss.
Dave Hansen wrote:
No. Actually, I have never
heard this question
discussed
DAVEH: That rather
surprises me. I remember asking Perry a similar question
sometime ago, and he blew me off. That rather surprised
me at the time, but I did not pursue it.
As I understand, most Christians
(including Protestants, RCC and independents) believe that God
wanted A&E not to transgress. IFF that was actually
his intention, then it seems an interesting thought avenue to
pursue. Yet, the few who've responded seem to
indicate that they have no interest in pondering what the Lord
intended to be. To me, that seems very
strange. Does it strike you as rather curious,
John?
were A & E predestined to
sin?
DAVEH: Yes, I did ask that
question. I do not know what you folks believe about
predestination and foreordination. Since you apparently
do not believe we existed in a pre-mortal state, it would seem
to me that you would not believe in either. But....I
don't want to assume such without at least asking you
first.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No. Actually, I have never heard
this question discussed. You
asked me to comment on a question -- perhaps a
week ago, now. Aaaahhhhhh, was it "were
A & E predestined to sin?
jd
DAVEH:
May I suggest another topic of interest to me? I am
curious as to if any of you folks ever consider what would
have happened IF Adam and Eve had not transgressed.
Does that discussion ever come up with you folks? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Look -- what are we going to
discuss here on TT? We have pretty much
said all that can be said about any number of
subjects.
jd
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
Commandments
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
I maintain six email lists...
JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
judyt
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
Commandments
is a liar (1 John 2:4)
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