John, in my opinion based upon sketchy details, Joanna violated the teaching of Paul. Paul dealt with fornicators by instructing believers not to even eat with them. Paul rebuked the carnal Corinthians for doing the same thing Joanna was doing. Don't you see that? It is a difficult position to take, but that is the Scripture of 1 Cor. 3:1ff, 1 Cor. 5, etc.
Now, we don't hear all the facts about her situation, so there are other possibilities here. Perhaps Joanna did not know this person very well and had not had time to instruct the person in righteousness. If this person responds to her admonition that such is wrong, then I don't have a problem with her eating with the person. However, if this person is a believer who knows better and justifies his fornication with the notion that everybody sins, then we have a problem along the lines of 1 Cor. Do you see it differently? David Miller p.s. I have eaten with ignorant Christian fornicators many times and will continue to do so, but it is because of their ignorance. There are others that know better with whom I have had to carry the cross and cut them off, even a family member ala Luke 14:26. ----- Original Message ----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:45 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] Comfort the FORNICATORS! Perhaps my twentieth request. It is not what I think you beleive but what you actually believe that is the question. If I tell you what I think you believe, you will just make fun of me and hurt my feelings and stuff . Does Kevin beleive in the kind of mission activity demonstrated by Joanna and deemed necessary by Paul as he ministered to a carnal but saved bunch of disciples? -------------- Original message -------------- From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ELEVENTH REQUEST Please post a short summary of the position you want me to hold. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds like a bear with his foot in a trap !! It is so easy to set the record straight. You are all over people or activiity such as the one shared by Lance and his friend, Joanna Williams, and yet, you now seem to want others to believe that I have misrepresented you. Not my intention at all. What would you do differently than Paul and why? Or, would you rather moan for a while? Get back to me on that , will you? Have I not quoted enough of your position on this? Give the word -- there is more. dj -------------- Original message -------------- From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I see you as standing outside the door of the church rebuking Wake UP! It's just a NIGHMARE! Or a personal problem... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your theology is herein included, Kevin. Now -- Back to I Cor 3:1ff. It appears (based on what is written) that we have a church full of carnal and immature people. It is my beleif that if this were a circumstance in which Joanna Williams could help -- she just might be doing her best to mentor these folk toward freedom in Christ and maturity in the Spirit. And that is exactly what Paul is trying to do with the writing of this Corinthian letter. I see you as standing outside the door of the church, rebuking them to the hell they so richly deserve (don't we all) and doing precious little to actually help these brethren.. They are alive in Christ, yet carnal -- a circumstance that could work harm in their lives. This is a church with problems (more than likely a Missionary Baptist church.) Again, these disciples are alive in Christ, Christians if you will, but carnal yet in their walk with God. Actually, Paul deals with this weak fellowship of saints for several years, does he not -- perhaps three letters or more and a visit or two. He never recommended they be cut off from the larger church. So how does Kevin deal with this Apostolic example? Mock those who think to do what Paul was doing -- or ????????? I am curious. Can you answer this? telll us how the reality that is pictured in I Cor 3:1ff works in your thegology? jd -------------- Original message -------------- From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> No surprise here from the "community" of salve your own conscience crowd. God's ways? It my way or the highway! SIN #1 The sin is in doing it our way in direct disobedience to God's commands. SIN #2 What help was offered has the Fornicator Repented? The attempt was about as useful as the same attempt to help in a Emergency room. More damage than help. This guy is headed for trouble where was the help? Comfort for Fornicators? That is a great help! whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To imagine that there are those who think it a sin as one attempts to help those who cry for help demonstrates just how confused we can get in our individual theologies. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Community" Conscience is an EXCUSE for lack of Personal responsibility & holiness. Therefore it's overwhelming popularity! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Much of the effort we see in the posts from friends of Lance is illustrative of the Charles Sheldon's In His Steps. WWJD came from this book. It pictures the tension that is too exist between the corporate body (the church) and the individual. Our assemblage is designed to offer encouragement as we consider love and good works. To imagine that there are those who think it a sin as one attempts to help those who cry for help demonstrates just how confused we can get in our individual theologies. jd -------------- Original message -------------- From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> it is also not our place to point out people's sins. Whatever happened to when you see a brother overtaken in...? Amazing ignorance of the Bible ignorance of holiness But then it does say some are willfuly ignorant I hope that a seed may have been planted and will take root eventually and bear fruit. This tapioca pussyfooting will never reawaken conciousness of sin But I am not naiive enough to think that I will see or be involved in that entire process. O No you have done your part you are a sin enabler. You want to be so inclusive while God says to be exclusive put them apart. You have touched the dead thing so much now you have the leaven on you and can not see it. But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: Joanna Williams To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 14, 2006 01:02 Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams - friend of some 10 years speaks on believing teens While I agree completely with what you are saying...it is also not our place to point out people's sins. May they see righteousness in our lives and be drawn to a life lived that speaks volumes..much more that words ever could. Francis of Assissi said well: Preach the gospel and use words when necessary. The earlier e-mail I sent was about a couple of encounters...which ended up in some substantial conversations. I hope that a seed may have been planted and will take root eventually and bear fruit. But I am not naiive enough to think that I will see or be involved in that entire process. I must do my part and then move on in faith, praying and trusting that God will do that miraculous work of transformation in people's lives that He always does. I ran a youth group here in Mississauga years ago where I had a friend of one of our young people from the church show up stoned out of her mind. I knew that everyone was watching how I would handle that as a youth leader. It wasn't easy but I wanted her to stay and did not chide her for being out of it...or not listening...or interrupting my lesson etc.. I continued to invite her out and she continued to come..sometimes in a mind-altered state. I eventually found out that she was dating a drug-dealer and as we talked I discovered that her mother had just become a Christian. She also confessed once in our group that her mother was her greatest role model and she admired her! I knew that God was working in the life of this young woman. One day when I went over to her place to invite her out for coffee, she couldn't wait to ask me a ton of questions about the Bible, Jesus, faith etc...We talked for hours that night. It was just another "coffee"..and yet it wasn't. People change when God wants them to. She was utterly hungry for truth and probed more and more. We finally went home and a few days later she not only broke up with her drug-dealer boyfriend, witnessed to him, started going to church, gave h er life to God, got baptized, attended Redeemer University and is now a Christian counsellor. Her cousins have become Christian through her witness and still contact me once in a while to get together. Last summer, I had the privilege of attending her wedding to a wonderful Christian guy. I could go on and on about many young people like her. I have learned that often when I am least expecting it people will change. All of our words and judgements and pointing of sin in their lives is not what draws them. God's love and us living out that love in our lives draws them..and they will come to Him in their own time and way. There are young people out of that exact same youth group that I am still have "coffees" with! And will continue to...even when they are not spiritually hungry YET... I feel it is so important to be faithful to people and pray them into the kingdom...not talk them into it. They know what I live for and they can see it and that's enough. And I have th i s feeling that they will know God in their own time. They are just on a journey of finding how life is empty without Him. It is during this time that we must stay faithful to them. Just some thoughts... Joanna From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Joanna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams - friend of some 10 years speaks on believing teens Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:44:40 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: March 12, 2006 08:45 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams - friend of some 10 years speaks on believing teens Lance, from the small piece below I'd say Joanna has a heart of gold. I agree that rushing to judgment is one way to chase unbelievers away, and is not what Jesus did except with those who were religious hypocrites. First one must love and befriend, as she obviously does. But, as I told JD, we must also speak truth if we are to be ambassadors of Christ, just as Jesus did. He loved, He befriended, but He never hesitated to call sin a sin because He loved those He befriended enough to want to lead them to freedom from sin, as that is what ultimately will destroy our relationship with Him. That was His entire objective in dying on the cross, of course. Tough love is much harder for us to give than soft love. Tough love isn't harsh and angry; it is just the kind of love that pulls people towards the truth, even when it is tempting to gloss over the hard issues. Sin is the e lephant in the room; do we "love" people so much that we pretend it isn't there, or do we really love them enough to address the obvious? The fleshly Believer takes the easy path of just "loving and being loved," while the Spirit-filled Believer uses the truths of the Word to deliver the captives from sin as well as unbelief. Like being a parent, a Christian mentor always holds up the goal and then walks with you towards it. Poor parents are those who give "love, love, love," and never balance that with self-discipline and hard work-the children are ruined for life by their own selfishness and laziness. Jesus defined our goal as His disciples: Luke 5: 32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. That, of course, is the issue I continually have with those of the "liberal Christian" persuasion-they have no fear of sin, for themselves or others. They don't realize that sin is what truly ails us. This is a hollow gosp e l that allows many to die in their sins. Izzy John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:05 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams - friend of some 10 years speaks on believing teens Well, since I'm being asked for a response on this...my initial feeling is that we need to live in the real world having contact with real people...perhaps listen a little more to others and how they live. In my experience with people, including believers by the way, struggle with sin is common. By the way, people are so much more harsh on visible sins such as addictions to alcohol, pornography, drugs etc....whereas I believe Jesus always looked deeper into our hearts and spoke to much that was invisible to many...such as self-righteousness, judgement towards others, jealousies, religious obsession. etc. These are way harder to weed out of our lives than outer behaviours that seem to upset the church so much. I pray that we may see these situations with the heart of God, listening and dealing with others on a very real level which unfortunately is so often tucked away and not t alked about enough. We have many hurting people in our churches who are deeply addicted to many non-christian behaviours...but rather than judge...it may be much better to listen, to learn and to work out the deeper rooted hurts and issues that cause people to lose themselves in the worlds of pornography, alcohol, sexual relationships etc. It is so important to be the kind of Christian that is listening to others with an open attitude and no pre-conceived judgements in mind whether they are in the church or not. A couple of instances pop into my mind right now...one is from last Saturday when I actually popped by my friend's house...co-worker from the bank where I work. As we sipped on coffee, her boyfriend/spouse began to talk about how he used to go to church in England and considers himself a believer in God and Christ but would no longer go to a church anymore because of the questions about his relationship with my friend and the fact that they were living together. H e began to share his hurts about th is situation and then we got into one of the best discussions I've ever had on the book of Job. He relates a lot to Job and the judgement his well-meaning friends brought to him during a rough time in his life when they should have been listening and loving him and not judging him. How wonderful at the end of the book when Job not only comes into a deep trust with God but God also invites him to pray for the very friends that incessantly accused him. Great victory there and much to be learned from that story. Another situation I am reminded of is happening in my church right now with a young teenager who is pregnant and has come to our church for shelter. While she loves the Lord and clings to His love at this hard time in her life, she is also still involved with her boyfriend outside of marriage right now and realizes her situations are not perfect. I have just chosen as a y ou th ministry leader to walk bes ide her, with no judgments given, and just let the Word of the God speak to her and let her make her choices...letting her know God's great love just as she is. I feel as if as a church, if we come out of the little religious bubble we've allowed ourselves to be in...much awaits us. Sure life will not be black and white but it will be interesting and beautiful...as diverse as each person's dna and personality is...it is in these simply unique ways that God does touch and change each life...not in cookie-cutter ways or via textbook answers! I hope this helps somewhat...would love to continue the conversation!! All the best to all of you...Roll up your sleeves and get into the amazing mix of life with others...God will pop up in the most surprising places!! My e-mail address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] if any of you care to contact me at a ny time! Thank you! Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." 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