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Good for Leisa, I am glad she is learning the ways of
the Lord while she is so young, children raised in
godly homes have such an advantage. My mother
didn't walk in that kind of faith but she would not cave to
sickness too easily and she taught us not to pamper
ourselves or give in to it - even that helped quite a bit
and I'm learning more daily. Thanks for sharing
this David.
Excellent comments, Judy. I think you are really hitting a home run
with these points.
I'm all for ministering to sinners and the sick, but my idea of ministry
is solutions and healing, not a hospital club of sick and dying folk. I
have remarked to my congregation here several times that we have too many sick
folk. I can't help but think of Paul's words to the Corinthians, that
many among them were sick and dying because they were not discerning the
Lord's body.
Just this morning, I had a talk with my 10 year old daughter Leisa who
had fallen off the monkey bars at school last Friday and sprained her
wrist. The school nurse said it was broken, but we prayed, and when the
doctor examined it, he said it was fine and didn't even charge us for the
visit. My wife insisted I buy her a wrist support for her arm, which I
did, but ever since we put that on her arm, the arm seemed to get worse.
The wrist support is not directly hurting her arm. I'm sure it is
helping in a natural way to immobilize the wrist. The problem is that
the wrist support hinders faith. I made a mistake with my faith
the moment I bought it. I wish now I had not listened to
my wife and bought it. I told my daughter this morning, if you
really want your arm to be healed immediately instead of going through
weeks of pain before it is well, you will have to get rid of the wrist
support. If you believe God for healing, you won't be putting that
support on your arm. The minute you do, you are failing to believe
God. Now if you have not received healing and you need the support, then
fine, put it on, but you need to understand how this wrist support is
hindering you from believing Jesus for healing. I told her that she has
experienced healing before through us, but she is getting to the age now where
God is expecting her to exercise her own faith. I'm hoping she ditches
the wrist support and I will hear her praise report tonight.
David Miller
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:34
AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk]
Comfort the FORNICATORS!
David, I honestly see a huge difference.
Joanna seems to believe that those with whom she is working are in
need of help --
Maybe they are in need of help but from what
Joanne says they are not open to receive it ..
the way I remember it, the partner was bitter
against the Church for supposedly judging them
which would lead one to believe that nothing has
changed.
the Corinthians were perfectly content with doing absolutely
nothing.
How do you know they were content with doing
nothing? Some of the greatest altruistic works
are done by out and out blasphemers and
sinners.
Our churches should be full of sinners willing to ask for help,
willing to receive teaching, love,
prayer and the spirit.
The "willing" part is the crux of the issue JD.
Some are willing to receive practical help on
their terms .. or they want the cover of love but
do not want to part with their sin and tolerating
this kind of thing in the name of the Lord is
pride. Paul judged it even in his absence because
if this kind of thing persists the presence of
God leaves and we must turn to marketing etc.
like the Purpose Driven fellow is
about.
I see no similarity between Joanna and the Corinthian Carnals.
I know that you have spoken
out against the church as a "hospital," in the past and I am always
surprised at such thinking. jd
Do you recall Jesus asking the man at the pool of
Bethseda "do you want to be made well?"
Valid question. Some want the love and attention
while they coddle their soul sickness.
From:
"David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> John, in my
opinion based upon sketchy details, Joanna violated the teaching
> of Paul. Paul dealt with fornicators by instructing believers
not to even
> eat with them. Paul rebuked the carnal Corinthians
for doing the same thing
> Joanna was doing. Don't you see that?
It is a difficult position to take,
> but that is the Scripture
of 1 Cor. 3:1ff, 1 Cor. 5, etc.
>
> Now, we don't hear all
the facts about her situation, so there are other
> possibilities
here. Perhaps Joanna did not know this person very well and
> had
not had time to instruct the person in righteousness. If this person
> responds to her admonition that such is wrong, then I don't
have a problem
> with her eating with the person. However, if
this person is a believer who
> knows better and ju stifies his
fornication with the notion that everybody
> sins, then we have a
problem along the lines of 1 Cor. Do you see it
> differently?
>
> David Miller
>
> p.s. I have eaten with
ignorant Christian fornicators many times and will
> continue to
do so, but it is because of their ignorance. There are others
>
that know better with whom I have had to carry the cross and cut them
off,
> even a family member ala Luke 14:26.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ;
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006
11:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] Comfort the
FORNICATORS!
>
> Perhaps my twentieth request. It is not
what I think you beleive but what
> you actually believe that is
the question. If I tell you what I think you
> believe, you will
just make fun of me and hurt my feelings and stuff .
>
>
Doe s Kevin beleive in the kind of mission activity demonstrated by
Joanna
> and deemed necessary by Paul as he ministered to a
carnal but saved bunch
> of disciples?
>
>
-------------- Original message --------------
> From: Kevin
Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> ELEVENTH REQUEST
> Please post a short summary of the position you want me to
hold.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Sounds like
a bear with his foot in a trap !!
>
> It is so easy to set
the record straight. You are all over people or
> activiity such
as the one shared by Lance and his friend, Joanna Williams,
> and
yet, you now seem to want others to believe that I have misrepresented
> you. Not my intention at all. What would you do differently
than Paul
> and why? Or, would you rather moan for a while? Get
back to me on that ,
> will you?
>
> Have I not
quoted enough of your position on this? Give the word -- there
>
is mo re.
>
> dj
>
> -------------- Original
message --------------
> From: Kevin Deegan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> I see you as standing
outside the door of the church rebuking
>
> Wake UP!
> It's just a NIGHMARE!
> Or a personal problem...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Your theology is
herein included, Kevin. Now -- Back to I Cor 3:1ff. It
> appears
(based on what is written) that we have a church full of carnal and
> immature people. It is my beleif that if this were a
circumstance in which
> Joanna Williams could help -- she just
might be doing her best to mentor
> these folk toward freedom in
Christ and maturity in the Spirit. And that
> is exactly what
Paul is trying to do with the writing of this Corinthian
>
letter.
>
> I see you as standing outside the door of the
church, rebuking them to the
> hell they so richly deserve (don't
we all) and doing precious little t o
> actually help these
brethren.. They are alive in Christ, yet carnal -- a
>
circumstance that could work harm in their lives. This is a church with
> problems (more than likely a Missionary Baptist church.) Again,
these
> disciples are alive in Christ, Christians if you will,
but carnal yet in
> their walk with God. Actually, Paul deals
with this weak fellowship of
> saints for several years, does he
not -- perhaps three letters or more and
> a visit or two. He
never recommended they be cut off from the larger
> church.
> So how does Kevin deal with this Apostolic example? Mock those
who think
> to do what Paul was doing -- or ????????? I am
curious. Can you
> answer this? telll us how the reality that is
pictured in I Cor 3:1ff works
> in your thegology?
>
> jd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-------------- Original message --------------
> From: Kevin
Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> No surprise here from the
"community" of salve your own conscience crowd.
> God's ways? It
my way or the highway!
>
> SIN #1
> The sin is in
doing it our way in direct disobedience to God's commands.
>
> SIN #2
> What help was offered has the Fornicator
Repented?
> The attempt was about as useful as the same attempt
to help in a Emergency
> room. More damage than help.
>
> This guy is headed for trouble where was the help?
>
Comfort for Fornicators? That is a great help!
> whoremongers and
adulterers God will judge.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> To imagine that there are those who think it a sin as one
attempts to help
> those who cry for help demonstrates just how
confused we can get in our
> individual theologies.
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From:
Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> "Communit y" Conscience
is an EXCUSE for lack of Personal responsibility &
>
holiness.
> Therefore it's overwhelming popularity!
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Much of the effort we see
in the posts from friends of Lance is illustrative
> of the
Charles Sheldon's In His Steps. WWJD came from this book. It
>
pictures the tension that is too exist between the corporate body (the
> church) and the individual. Our assemblage is designed to offer
> encouragement as we consider love and good works. To imagine
that there are
> those who think it a sin as one attempts to help
those who cry for help
> demonstrates just how confused we can
get in our individual theologies.
>
> jd
>
>
-------------- Original message --------------
> From: Kevin
Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> it is also not our
place to point out people's sins.
>
> Whatever happened to
when you see a brother overtaken in...?
> Am azing ignorance of
the Bible ignorance of holiness
> But then it does say some are
willfuly ignorant
>
> I hope that a seed may have been
planted and will take root eventually and
> bear fruit.
>
This tapioca pussyfooting will never reawaken conciousness of sin
>
> But I am not naiive enough to think that I will see or
be involved in that
> entire process.
>
> O No you
have done your part you are a sin enabler. You want to be so
>
inclusive while God says to be exclusive put them apart. You have
touched
> the dead thing so much now you have the leaven on you
and can not see it.
> But them that are without God judgeth.
Therefore put away from among
> yourselves that wicked person.
>
> Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joanna Williams
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: March 14, 2006 01:02
> Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] Joanna William s - friend of some
10 years
> speaks on believing teens
>
>
>
While I agree completely with what you are saying...it is also not our
place
> to point out people's sins. May they see righteousness in
our lives and be
> drawn to a life lived that speaks
volumes..much more that words ever could.
> Francis of Assissi
said well: Preach the gospel and use words when
> necessary. The
earlier e-mail I sent was about a couple of
> encounters...which
ended up in some substantial conversations. I hope that
> a seed
may have been planted and will take root eventually and bear fruit.
> But I am not naiive enough to think that I will see or be
involved in that
> entire process. I must do my part and then
move on in faith, praying and
> trusting that God will do that
miraculous work of transformation in people's
> lives that He
always does. I ran a youth group here in Mississauga years
> ago
where I had a friend of one of our young people from the church show up
> stoned out of her mind. I knew that everyone was watching how I
would
> handle that as a youth leader. It wasn't easy but I
wanted her to stay and
> did not chide her for being out of
it...or not listening...or interrupting
> my lesson etc.. I
continued to invite her out and she continued to
>
come..sometimes in a mind-altered state. I eventually found out that she
> was dating a drug-dealer and as we talked I discovered that her
mother had
> just become a Christian. She also confessed once in
our group that her
> mother was her greatest role model and she
admired her! I knew that God was
> working in the life of this
young woman. One day when I went over to her
> place to invite
her out for coffee, she couldn't wait to ask me a ton of
>
questions about the Bible, Jesus, faith etc...We talked for hours that
> night. It was just another "coffee"..and yet it wasn't. People
change when
> God wants them to. She was utterly h ungry for
truth and probed more and
> more. We finally went home and a few
days later she not only broke up with
> her drug-dealer
boyfriend, witnessed to him, started going to church, gave h
> er
life to God, got baptized, attended Redeemer University and is now a
> Christian counsellor. Her cousins have become Christian through
her
> witness and still contact me once in a while to get
together. Last summer,
> I had the privilege of attending her
wedding to a wonderful Christian guy.
> I could go on and on
about many young people like her. I have learned that
> often
when I am least expecting it people will change. All of our words and
> judgements and pointing of sin in their lives is not what draws
them. God's
> love and us living out that love in our lives draws
them..and they will come
> to Him in their own time and way.
There are young people out of that exact
> same youth group that
I am still have "coffees" with! And will continue
> t o...even
when they are not spiritually hungry YET... I feel it is so
>
important to be faithful to people and pray them into the kingdom...not
talk
> them into it. They know what I live for and they can see
it and that's
> enough. And I have th i s feeling that they will
know God in their own
> time. They are just on a journey of
finding how life is empty without Him.
> It is during this time
that we must stay faithful to them. Just some
> thoughts...
> Joanna
>
>
>
>
> From:
"Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Joanna"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] Joanna
Williams - friend of some 10 years speaks on
> believing teens
> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:44:40 -0500
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
ShieldsFamily
> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> Sent:
March 12, 2006 08:45
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams -
friend of some 10 years speaks on
> believing teens
>
>
> Lance, from the small piece below I'd say Joanna has a
heart of gold. I
> agree that rushing to judgment is one way to
chase unbelievers away, and is
> not what Jesus did except with
those who were religious hypocrites. First
> one must love and
befriend, as she obviously does. But, as I told JD, we
> must
also speak truth if we are to be ambassadors of Christ, just as Jesus
> did. He loved, He befriended, but He never hesitated to call
sin a sin
> because He loved those He befriended enough to want
to lead them to freedom
> from sin, as that is what ultimately
will destroy our relationship with Him.
> That was His entire
objective in dying on the cross, of course. Tough love
> is much
harder for us to give than soft love. Tough love isn't harsh and
> angry; it is just the kind of love that pulls people towards
the truth, even
> when it is tempting to gloss over the hard
issues. Sin is the e lephant in
> the room; do we "love" people
so much that we pretend it isn't there, or do
> we really love
them enough to address the obvious? The fleshly Believer
> takes
the easy path of just "loving and being loved," while the
>
Spirit-filled Believer uses the truths of the Word to deliver the
captives
> from sin as well as unbelief. Like being a parent, a
Christian mentor
> always holds up the goal and then walks with
you towards it. Poor parents
> are those who give "love, love,
love," and never balance that with
> self-discipline and hard
work-the children are ruined for life by their own
> selfishness
and laziness. Jesus defined our goal as His disciples: Luke 5:
>
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. That, of
> course, is the issue I continually have with those of the
"liberal
> Christian" persuasion-they have no fear of sin, for
themselves or others.
> They don't realize that sin is what truly
ails us . This is a hollow gosp e
> l that allows many to die in
their sins. Izzy
> John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I
go my way, and ye shall seek
> me, and shall die in your sins:
whither I go, ye cannot come.
>
>
>
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:05 PM
> To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
> Subject: [TruthTalk] Joanna
Williams - friend of some 10 years speaks on
> believing teens
>
> Well, since I'm being asked for a response on
this...my initial feeling is
> that we need to live in the real
world having contact with real
> people...perhaps listen a little
more to others and how they live. In my
> experience with people,
including believers by the way, struggle with sin is
> common. By
the way, people are so much more harsh on visible sins such as
>
addictions to alcohol, porno graphy, drugs etc....whereas I believe
Jesus
> always looked deeper into our hearts and spoke to much
that was invisible to
> many...such as self-righteousness,
judgement towards others, jealousies,
> religious obsession. etc.
These are way harder to weed out of our lives
> than outer
behaviours that seem to upset the church so much. I pray that we
> may see these situations with the heart of God, listening and
dealing with
> others on a very real level which unfortunately is
so often tucked away and
> not t alked about enough. We have many
hurting people in our churches who
> are deeply addicted to many
non-christian behaviours...but rather than
> judge...it may be
much better to listen, to learn and to work out the deeper
>
rooted hurts and issues that cause people to lose themselves in the
worlds
> of pornography, alcohol, sexual relationships etc. It is
so important to be
> the kind of Christian that is listening to
others with an open attitude and
> no pre-conceived judgements in
mind whether they are in the church or not.
> A couple of
instances pop into my mind right now...one is from last Saturday
> when I actually popped by my friend's house...co-worker from
the bank where
> I work. As we sipped on coffee, her
boyfriend/spouse began to talk about
> how he used to go to
church in England and considers himself a believer in
> God and
Christ but would no longer go to a church anymore because of the
> questions about his relationship with my friend and the fact
that they were
> living together. H e began to share his hurts
about th is situation and
> then we got into one of the best
discussions I've ever had on the book of
> Job. He relates a lot
to Job and the judgement his well-meaning friends
> brought to
him during a rough time in his life when they should have been
>
listening and loving him and not judging him. How wonderful at the end
of
> the book when Job not only comes in to a deep trust with God
but God also
> invites him to pray for the very friends that
incessantly accused him.
> Great victory there and much to be
learned from that story. Another
> situation I am reminded of is
happening in my church right now with a young
> teenager who is
pregnant and has come to our church for shelter. While she
>
loves the Lord and clings to His love at this hard time in her life, she
is
> also still involved with her boyfriend outside of marriage
right now and
> realizes her situations are not perfect. I have
just chosen as a y ou th
> ministry leader to walk bes ide her,
with no judgments given, and just let
> the Word of the God speak
to her and let her make her choices...letting her
> know God's
great love just as she is. I feel as if as a church, if we come
>
out of the little religious bubble we've allowed ourselves to be
in...much
> awaits us. Sure life will not be black and white but
it will be interesting
> and beautiful...as diverse as each
person's dna and personality is...it is
> in these simply unique
ways that God does touch and change each life...not
> in
cookie-cutter ways or via textbook answers! I hope this helps
>
somewhat...would love to continue the conversation!! All the best to all
of
> you...Roll up your sleeves and get into the amazing mix of
life with
> others...God will pop up in the most surprising
places!! My e-mail address
> is [EMAIL PROTECTED] if
any of you care to contact me at a ny
> time! Thank you!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo!
Mail
> Use Photomail to share photos without annoying
attachments.
>
>
>
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> ----------
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that
you may know how
> you ought to answer every man." (Colossians
4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
>
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